Accounts

[Kudos]

But we are supporters of the club, who pay money to watch the team play football. All of those issues are directly related to the reason we are here as football supporters.

People don't follow AFCB because they are supporters of company finance do they? As if we're all on tenterhooks to see whether they are going to make a new signing in the board room and change tactics.

In my view only one thing matters in relation to the finances and that's whether the club is on secure financial footing, which it has never really been since I've supported them. The current situation is 100% down to the whims of one bloke as it has been since he took over. If he loses interest we're going bust in a big way. It's always been this way, covid has made it worse and there's nothing any of us can do about it unless we've got enough to buy the club off him.

Since the 90's when I started to watch football, off-the-field management went hand in hand with its fate on the pitch.

There's a correlation between wages and league position. Those who succeed more, pay more and where there's a team either below or above that trend line it's showing the quality of the non-playing staff against its peers.

More importantly then just success it's survival. We've seen a few clubs go under while we were in the acendancy and it was my sincere hope we would see some infrastructure to make us self sustainable but instead it's huge debt.

When I first started to support the club it was always skint and it's important to me personally that I do what I can to preserve this inheritance for others.

If you don't care about the finance, while it's sad, surely you're better off avoiding threads which are clearly about the topic.

 

[Kudos]

£48m of the £60m loss was down to player registration amortisation and as such is a non-cash cost.

One issue for me is the £13m owed elsewhere and that could possibly be related to the charges on the company. It's possible that the club have sold the rights to future ticket sales which would be a concern.

As others have said, it could be worse and the club is fine until Max falls out of love with the club or decides to turn the taps off.

Max isn't dumb so he must see something in Blake that we don't. The next few months will prove whether he is worth the money or not.

Isn't amortization just spreading out the transfer loss over the term of the contract?

Does that mean there's still a other £100M or so in future fees to declare from the likes of Lerma, Kelly, Stacey, Brooks, Begovic, Solanke, Billing, Rico, Mepham and Danjuma?

I'm assuming sold players stop amortizing?

 

[johnbob]

160mm owed to the owner, unless training grounds and stadiums pay for themselves I think we can assume that Demin is quite within his rights to not put his hand in his pocket to fund something like that at the moment.

I would say he’s has put his hand in his pocket quite enough for now, get to the end of season and see where we are

 

[RobTrent]

Max couldn't be certain we'd reach the PL, after all, lots of clubs spunk a fortune trying to get there (Derby?). But we did.

Its easy to say what we shouldn't do, but actually doing it is a different matter. I agree with @Neil Dawson that we could probably do with a better CEO but unless Max reads this board to get the experts view then things will only change when he's had enough.

So while he remains in charge I'm happy with his choices. There are better and worse owners out there, but none have really overseen the rise of Tinpot FC from the 4th division to the top.

 

[SlowDownDerek]

Since the 90's when I started to watch football, off-the-field management went hand in hand with its fate on the pitch.

There's a correlation between wages and league position. Those who succeed more, pay more and where there's a team either below or above that trend line it's showing the quality of the non-playing staff against its peers.

More importantly then just success it's survival. We've seen a few clubs go under while we were in the acendancy and it was my sincere hope we would see some infrastructure to make us self sustainable but instead it's huge debt.

When I first started to support the club it was always skint and it's important to me personally that I do what I can to preserve this inheritance for others.

If you don't care about the finance, while it's sad, surely you're better off avoiding threads which are clearly about the topic.

You contradict yourself, firstly saying there's a correlation between wages and performance and then saying we've always been skint, which is what I said. We've won promotion whilst being skint too so I don't see how that first point can be true either.

What are you doing personally to preserve the inheritance to others? How does spending money on infrastructure make the club self sustainable? It would increase debt from the outset and would need to be accompanied by a large increase in revenues to improve the self-sustaining principle you advocate. There's big question marks over how much this infrastructure would boost revenues.

It's not that I don't care I just get pretty tired of listening to people telling someone who's funded the club to the tune of hundreds of millions that's he's not spent enough or that he's employed the wrong people. Some people put their money where their mouth is and others have a go at people on the Internet.

 

[Waz afcb]

As far as I’m aware debt is not the major issue when it comes to big business, cash flow is the most important factor. The figure looks scary but you have to remember that Man Unt have debt totalling not far off 1 billion (as far as I’m aware.) Don’t know an awful lot about this kind of thing but the ones who seem to have a financial background seem to not be too worried, whereas the everyday folk who don’t know the difference between a deficit and a surplus seem to be getting their knickers in a twist. Having said that, how in God’s earth does Blake earn over 1m a year. That is the most worrying bit for me.

 

[Red_till_im_ded]

A fine example of how to piss half a billion pounds up the wall and have **************** all to show for it except a few blurry memories. Plenty have done well financially out of our stint in the PL, shame the club is on its knees but the club and the supporters paled into insignificance once the pounds came rolling in

 

[USCherry]

As far as I’m aware debt is not the major issue when it comes to big business, cash flow is the most important factor. The figure looks scary but you have to remember that Man Unt have debt totalling not far off 1 billion (as far as I’m aware.) Don’t know an awful lot about this kind of thing but the ones who seem to have a financial background seem to not be too worried, whereas the everyday folk who don’t know the difference between a deficit and a surplus seem to be getting their knickers in a twist. Having said that, how in God’s earth does Blake earn over 1m a year. That is the most worrying bit for me.

I am guessing it depends on who you owe the debt too and if you can afford to make the interest/principle payments. A benevolent owner owed money is probably better than the HMRC as a creditor

 

[Kudos]

You contradict yourself, firstly saying there's a correlation between wages and performance and then saying we've always been skint, which is what I said. We've won promotion whilst being skint too so I don't see how that first point can be true either.

I said "where there's a team either below or above that trend line it's showing the quality of the non-playing staff against its peers" aka one Mr Howe and in present case his absence.

I also said "When I first started to support the club" and even in your misquote you use the past tense.

It should be obvious to anyone the combination of the financial freedom from Max combined with Eddie's ability to develop players is what got us promoted.

What are you doing personally to preserve the inheritance to others? How does spending money on infrastructure make the club self sustainable? It would increase debt from the outset and would need to be accompanied by a large increase in revenues to improve the self-sustaining principle you advocate. There's big question marks over how much this infrastructure would boost revenues.

Well I'm resisting a collective head in the sand "good debt" attitude and getting a bit of stick for it so must be doing something right.

We've done the why you don't think infrastructure is worthwhile but we tried spending £120M of our £100M on playing staff season after season and we're in the Championship with £160M of debt and 113% wages to income. Makes infrastructure spending seem attractive by comparison.

It's not that I don't care I just get pretty tired of listening to people telling someone who's funded the club to the tune of hundreds of millions that's he's not spent enough or that he's employed the wrong people. Some people put their money where their mouth is and others have a go at people on the Internet.

Honestly, I'd preferred if he didn't loan money in the EPL, sold players when their stock was high and secured the ground and if we were lucky enough to spend multiple seasons in the EPL look to expand capacity and improve training facilities.

I've not seen any post on here asking him to spend more, just differently. Maybe you're reading into them too much.

 

[red_house]

A fine example of how to piss half a billion pounds up the wall and have **************** all to show for it except a few blurry memories. Plenty have done well financially out of our stint in the PL, shame the club is on its knees but the club and the supporters paled into insignificance once the pounds came rolling in

Blurry ? The 80's is starting to get slightly blurry but the last decade has been absolutely brilliant.

 

[SlowDownDerek]

I said "where there's a team either below or above that trend line it's showing the quality of the non-playing staff against its peers" aka one Mr Howe and in present case his absence.

I also said "When I first started to support the club" and even in your misquote you use the past tense.

It should be obvious to anyone the combination of the financial freedom from Max combined with Eddie's ability to develop players is what got us promoted.



Well I'm resisting a collective head in the sand "good debt" attitude and getting a bit of stick for it so must be doing something right.

We've done the why you don't think infrastructure is worthwhile but we tried spending £120M of our £100M on playing staff season after season and we're in the Championship with £160M of debt and 113% wages to income. Makes infrastructure spending seem attractive by comparison.



Honestly, I'd preferred if he didn't loan money in the EPL, sold players when their stock was high and secured the ground and if we were lucky enough to spend multiple seasons in the EPL look to expand capacity and improve training facilities.

I've not seen any post on here asking him to spend more, just differently. Maybe you're reading into them too much.

So you're agreeing with me that the only time since you and I have supported this club that we've been on a sound financial footing is under Max?

It is obvious that we wouldn't have had the success we've had without Max and the people he's employed yes.

What I don't I understand is all of these people who have watched the guy preside our most successful ever period and then declare that his strategy was all wrong. As if we'd have got half a billion quid if we'd have invested infrastructure instead of players. It's the old "if he'd have picked Stewart/Moss instead of Moss/Stewart he'd have definitely kept a clean sheet" all over again.

I would have loved the infrastructure. In fact I dare say I'd have preferred a bigger ground even if it meant we'd never got to the top flight but it's not my money. So whilst it wasn't perfect it was pretty close to it given what the previous 20 years were like.

 

[Waz afcb]

I am guessing it depends on who you owe the debt too and if you can afford to make the interest/principle payments. A benevolent owner owed money is probably better than the HMRC as a creditor

For sure it is. During the event of administration I believe you are obligated to pay both football creditors and the HMRC in full, whereas other creditors (such as an owner in the form of loans or local businesses) are only payed a fraction of what is owed to them. It is why it would make absolutely zero financial sense for Max to put us in administration for example.

 

[Kudos]

So you're agreeing with me that the only time since you and I have supported this club that we've been on a sound financial footing is under Max?

It is obvious that we wouldn't have had the success we've had without Max and the people he's employed yes.

What I don't I understand is all of these people who have watched the guy preside our most successful ever period and then declare that his strategy was all wrong. As if we'd have got half a billion quid if we'd have invested infrastructure instead of players. It's the old "if he'd have picked Stewart/Moss instead of Moss/Stewart he'd have definitely kept a clean sheet" all over again.

I would have loved the infrastructure. In fact I dare say I'd have preferred a bigger ground even if it meant we'd never got to the top flight but it's not my money. So whilst it wasn't perfect it was pretty close to it given what the previous 20 years were like.

Initially yes and when that was the odd free bridging loan to hold out for the right price for a player it was amazing. Now it's much more of a worry. I hope it hyperbole but Leeds saw their most successful time under Ridsdale but there are very few (after the event) talking about him positively.

My fear is that actually, things on the field are pretty dreadful when Eddie is not at the helm and I can see Max getting fed up and wanting out. Best case without his loans repaid and we're back to being ground down by stadium rent, worst case by asset stripping or loan restructuring.

I get your frustration, I felt it when there were pages of people saying a £50M bid for Callum Wilson was a joke and we should never sell if we ever wanted to 'kick on'.

I don't think it should be taboo to suggest that while the club is overspending its highest possible income on players that we should cut our cloth accordingly and that it's my preference to see investment in the future survival of the club.

To use a similar analogy to the "Stewart/Moss" one. Eddie Howe the other part of the double act for our success would spend an ungodly amount of his time at the club, would hold training, had a proven track record, a genuine love for the club, and was more qualified than the whole forum combined but would still get criticism when the team sheet was announced.

I'd like to think those people weren't ungrateful for his contribution or underestimating his ability but they are allowed to disagree.

I'm not ungrateful for Demin's contributions I just wish he had a more long-term approach because the last 5 years in the promised land have left us poorer than if we remained in the Championship.

 

[RobTrent]

Initially yes and when that was the odd free bridging loan to hold out for the right price for a player it was amazing. Now it's much more of a worry. I hope it hyperbole but Leeds saw their most successful time under Ridsdale but there are very few (after the event) talking about him positively.

My fear is that actually, things on the field are pretty dreadful when Eddie is not at the helm and I can see Max getting fed up and wanting out. Best case without his loans repaid and we're back to being ground down by stadium rent, worst case by asset stripping or loan restructuring.

I get your frustration, I felt it when there were pages of people saying a £50M bid for Callum Wilson was a joke and we should never sell if we ever wanted to 'kick on'.

I don't think it should be taboo to suggest that while the club is overspending its highest possible income on players that we should cut our cloth accordingly and that it's my preference to see investment in the future survival of the club.

To use a similar analogy to the "Stewart/Moss" one. Eddie Howe the other part of the double act for our success would spend an ungodly amount of his time at the club, would hold training, had a proven track record, a genuine love for the club, and was more qualified than the whole forum combined but would still get criticism when the team sheet was announced.

I'd like to think those people weren't ungrateful for his contribution or underestimating his ability but they are allowed to disagree.

I'm not ungrateful for Demin's contributions I just wish he had a more long-term approach because the last 5 years in the promised land have left us poorer than if we remained in the Championship.

I just don’t this at all.

 

[SteveJonesLegend]

I'm not ungrateful for Demin's contributions I just wish he had a more long-term approach because the last 5 years in the promised land have left us poorer than if we remained in the Championship.

I guess this is the thing though... No one other than Max himself probably really knows his true long-term intentions for the club, if there are any that is... and we as fans are conjuring all sorts of thoughts and opinions based around speculation...

I posted on here a short while back about me getting the feeling Max just wants us back in the PL to move us on and I reckon most of this has come from my inability to see where his long-term vision is right now... Given the things that would cement the long-term goal have seemingly all been put on the scrap heap...

• DC buy back or new ground
• Training facility
• Extension to South stand
• Replacement for Eddie v1.0
• Replacement for Eddie v2.0

Anyone of these options would go a long way to showing some sort of long-term vision for the club, yet every penny invested always seems to be with short-term intensions... One season at a time...Cheap options for managers, zero infrastructure building, just in case...

Investing in players to keep things going worked for so long but we're now seeing what happens when that goes tits up. We're back where we almost started and nowt to show for it but, as Kudos states, we're poorer than if we'd remained where we were...

Max has been a great owner for us, and as far as I'm aware still is... He's given us times beyond our imagination before his arrival, but the biggest fear for me was always the financials behind being relegated... because of our lack of building the 'club' up whilst we could... and yes that would have perhaps meant more debt... maybe not, with less on player purchases, but as a 'club' we'd be in a better position to push back towards the top again... All IMO of course

 

[SlowDownDerek]

Initially yes and when that was the odd free bridging loan to hold out for the right price for a player it was amazing. Now it's much more of a worry. I hope it hyperbole but Leeds saw their most successful time under Ridsdale but there are very few (after the event) talking about him positively.

My fear is that actually, things on the field are pretty dreadful when Eddie is not at the helm and I can see Max getting fed up and wanting out. Best case without his loans repaid and we're back to being ground down by stadium rent, worst case by asset stripping or loan restructuring.

I get your frustration, I felt it when there were pages of people saying a £50M bid for Callum Wilson was a joke and we should never sell if we ever wanted to 'kick on'.

I don't think it should be taboo to suggest that while the club is overspending its highest possible income on players that we should cut our cloth accordingly and that it's my preference to see investment in the future survival of the club.

To use a similar analogy to the "Stewart/Moss" one. Eddie Howe the other part of the double act for our success would spend an ungodly amount of his time at the club, would hold training, had a proven track record, a genuine love for the club, and was more qualified than the whole forum combined but would still get criticism when the team sheet was announced.

I'd like to think those people weren't ungrateful for his contribution or underestimating his ability but they are allowed to disagree.

I'm not ungrateful for Demin's contributions I just wish he had a more long-term approach because the last 5 years in the promised land have left us poorer than if we remained in the Championship.

The worst case scenario is that we end up exactly where we were before Max took over, which is perennial financial struggle. It might be a shame that we as fans didn't get the new ground we all wanted but isn't that looking a gift horse in the mouth?

It's a myth that investing £30m+ on a training ground and god-knows-what on a new ground would put us on a secure financial footing. Both would add massive amounts to the debt and not yield a reliable increase in income. I doubt post-relegation gate receipts in a bigger ground would be much higher than the £5m we got in the PL is it any wonder he prioritised the playing side of things?

Prioritising the playing side of things got them an extra £400m due to not getting relegated for five seasons. It's all very easy for the armchair football club owners to say how wrong he got it all but his record is better than anyone else who ever ran the club even if it does end in tears. It's not like it didn't end in tears under every previous owner.

 

[The Flying Picket]

The training ground was paid for by Mings transfer fee being used as collateral for the bank loan. the bank took put a charge on the transfer fees. So, it seems to be me that the debt has already been incurred, unless the money was used for other purposes.

Max who according to one supporter on the Russian AFCB supporters site is a Putin crony, would have put his money into share capital rather than loans, if he did not anticipate getting it back. That would have gone down a lot better with potential funders.

Of course Max may not be as bad as Harold Walker who built half a stand which had to be demolished, and who was also responsible for bringing Jimmy Saville to the town back in the 70s to run his nightclubs. But on the other hand, who knows where Max got his money from in the first place.

 

[redharry]

I am guessing it depends on who you owe the debt too and if you can afford to make the interest/principle payments. A benevolent owner owed money is probably better than the HMRC as a creditor

That last line is the understatement of the year !!!!!!!!

 

[New Old Cherry]

Accounting for ;
Half the Nation on minimum wage..or Zero contracts...or sat at home on 80% of those wages..others in hospital with Covid...who might never earn another penny.
We are still paying players thousands per week to perform for 95 minutes in empty stadiums....not social distancing or wearing masks like everyone else....some travelling abroad risking infection and bringing it back through airports.
Others on same wages sat on benches...sucking liquorice sticks and texting their 'agents' ...in search of a more lucrative loaf !

You couldn't buy it ....well you could ...but then you have to do 'Accounts'.

The Governments Accounts won't allow for a higher than 1% pay rise for people treating the Covid victims.

Accounts.

 

[Kudos]

The worst case scenario is that we end up exactly where we were before Max took over, which is perennial financial struggle. It might be a shame that we as fans didn't get the new ground we all wanted but isn't that looking a gift horse in the mouth?

It's a myth that investing £30m+ on a training ground and god-knows-what on a new ground would put us on a secure financial footing. Both would add massive amounts to the debt and not yield a reliable increase in income. I doubt post-relegation gate receipts in a bigger ground would be much higher than the £5m we got in the PL is it any wonder he prioritised the playing side of things?

Prioritising the playing side of things got them an extra £400m due to not getting relegated for five seasons. It's all very easy for the armchair football club owners to say how wrong he got it all but his record is better than anyone else who ever ran the club even if it does end in tears. It's not like it didn't end in tears under every previous owner.

The worst-case scenario is that Max sells anything that isn't nailed down and pops the club leaving fans shaking buckets with zero goodwill from the wider football world and far less than historically locally. Not that I believe that is very likely.

Investing in players does not and has not yielded a reliable increase in income instead it's yielded a reliable year-on-year increase in debt.

Prioritizing the playing side has generated a net loss of £160M. It doesn't matter how much money is in the plus column £400M or £40 if it's dwarfed by the minus column.