Investigation into training

SlowDownDerek said:
It's weird because you're unnecessarily focused on who these people are and where they've come from rather than the only question that matters - are they good enough?

Same with players: Steve Cook, Franno, Smithy, Daniels, Elphick all came from league one - in each case the relevant question was always - are they good enough? Some were, some weren't but where they'd come from and whose mates they were were not relevant questions.

What do you know about the terms of reference of the review? You've just made that up.

He's constantly looking at the levels of ability of his players and is now reviewing injuries and training so why wouldn't he be considering his staff's abilities? He's shuffled his pack and moved people into different roles loads of times.

Yes our injury record does concern me, maybe they should review it. :slap:
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I’m not concerned about an individuals background, I’ve stated that. I’m concerned with the fact that you can see big holes in player development, injuries and basic defending tactics. That leads me to look at the backroom team. None of them have a background at the level their players play at. I wouldn’t even be bothered if 70% of them didn’t meet that criteria if Eddie thought they were a good team. But 100% makes no sense to me and I don’t think it’s ‘weird’ to question that.
 
Neil Dawson said:
I’m not saying they aren’t fit for keeping us in the PL though. We should be aiming higher than that surely... top ten and decent cup runs, you have to have aspiration. Not enough of our players improved last season, some went backwards and we really struggle when our championship winning squad get injured. We have had nearly 500m quid in remember.
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See that's definitely where we differ because I'm happy with PL survival every year. I can't help it. I just remember those bad days so well and I don't expect the good ones to last forever. This is far and away the pinnacle of our history and we still are punching well above our weight in terms of "infrastructure" IMO. £500m has been spent on players and wages, in much the same way as Bolton, Fulham and Sunderland have done in recent seasons. It unfortunately guarantees nothing.

I'm not worried about finishing 10th or 17th. Obviously I'd prefer the former but to see the level of football we've been treated to week in week out is something I never thought I'd see in my lifetime.
Maybe it's a personality defect in me! More than likely!!!!
 
possible factors (aside from what you ladies are arguing about ;-) )
  • Our playing surface?
  • Our rubbish (relatively) training pitches?
  • Our style of play (over a season)?
  • Us having to slog a fair bit relative to your Man Cities of the world
  • Left footed players on right, right on left, asking to cut in all the time
  • Us signing the ugly duckling players that others didn't want. If they weren't as injury prone could we afford them?
  • Luck. Old fashioned bad luck. It's a small sample set so doesn't take big numbers to skew the stats.
  • Our league position. We can't stroll games even though that's how it appeared a lot last season!!!!
  • other stuff. I dunno. I'm making this up as I go along to be honest.

I remember Eunan O'Kane talking to his (my) old school about training and the "Readiness Test" they did to see if they were more or less likely to get injured if they trained that day. about 1:20 into this very professionally (!!!!) shot video from my old man.
 
Neil Dawson said:
I’m not concerned about an individuals background, I’ve stated that. I’m concerned with the fact that you can see big holes in player development, injuries and basic defending tactics. That leads me to look at the backroom team. None of them have a background at the level their players play at. I wouldn’t even be bothered if 70% of them didn’t meet that criteria if Eddie thought they were a good team. But 100% makes no sense to me and I don’t think it’s ‘weird’ to question that.
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You first sentence is completely contradicted by the rest of your post Neil. You are clearly bothered by where they've come from and their background because it's the stick you are using to beat them with.

As I say, the only question that needs to be asked is "are they good enough?" with the supplementary "how can we improve?" It looks to me that this is exactly what they are doing rather than wasting time trying looking at it in your strange way.
 
West Moors Cherry said:
See that's definitely where we differ because I'm happy with PL survival every year. I can't help it. I just remember those bad days so well and I don't expect the good ones to last forever. This is far and away the pinnacle of our history and we still are punching well above our weight in terms of "infrastructure" IMO. £500m has been spent on players and wages, in much the same way as Bolton, Fulham and Sunderland have done in recent seasons. It unfortunately guarantees nothing.

I'm not worried about finishing 10th or 17th. Obviously I'd prefer the former but to see the level of football we've been treated to week in week out is something I never thought I'd see in my lifetime.
Maybe it's a personality defect in me! More than likely!!!!
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Don't agree with this at all. This league isn't the be all and end all. I'd never wish us relegated but after ten years perpetual nothingness in this league I doubt I'd be crying for long if it did happen.
 
Neil Dawson said:
According to today’s ever reliable soaraway Sun we have launched an investigation into our training methods having sustained 10% of all PL serious knee injuries in the last four years.

First start point for me should be ‘was it right to keep all the coaching, medical and fitness teams from league one or should we have brought in people that understand the different rigours of top league football’
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I suppose before we debate this point it might be prudent to ask whether we have added to our fitness coaching staff since we were in league 1.....tbh i don't actually know ....maybe you would be so kind as to enlighten me Neil.....tia
 
SlowDownDerek said:
Don't agree with this at all. This league isn't the be all and end all. I'd never wish us relegated but after ten years perpetual nothingness in this league I doubt I'd be crying for long if it did happen.
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So what would be your preference SDD? Languishing mid to lower half of league 1? Every team aspires to play in the top league in their country surely? If this league isn't the be all and end all what is? League 2? I had 35 years of pretty much perpetual nothingness in Division 2 & 3 with the odd bit of glory chucked in. People seem to be under this illusion that when we go back to the championship it'll be the same rose tinted place as the last time we were in it. I wonder if Ipswich, Bolton, Coventry, etc, think the same........
 
Topfarrier said:
I suppose before we debate this point it might be prudent to ask whether we have added to our fitness coaching staff since we were in league 1.....tbh i don't actually know ....maybe you would be so kind as to enlighten me Neil.....tia
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Possibly, possibly not at a lower level. All the main figures have either been around since the championship or our former lower league players that have joined since. It’s them that sets the strategy.
 
I think some of the top teams get their fair share of injuries, just they have quality reserves to bring in.

Then it might be worth looking into the history of the players before they signed for us.

When we were in the Championship didn’t we have a good run with a settled team and Simon Francis hardly missed games?
 
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SlowDownDerek said:
You first sentence is completely contradicted by the rest of your post Neil. You are clearly bothered by where they've come from and their background because it's the stick you are using to beat them with.

As I say, the only question that needs to be asked is "are they good enough?" with the supplementary "how can we improve?" It looks to me that this is exactly what they are doing rather than wasting time trying looking at it in your strange way.
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I’m not sure you are understanding what I am saying. It’s probably me so I will have another try at being clearer.

I’m not worried about one particular individuals background. Collectively though I think there should be a balance. In any business people look, normally, to be successful through a balance of promoting people from within that grew up with the philosophy and blending them with new ideas from outside, particularly when entering new fields. I think we have done all the former and none of the latter.

If you were recruiting a senior exec team for an rapidly growing organisation and the chief exec said I want every single one of them to have come from the days we were a small company or be a relative you wouldn’t say ‘yes that’s advisable’ you’d say ‘it’s your call and that’s good as a guiding philosophy but have you thought about maybe mixing in a few with big company experience as you enter that world’

That’s all I am saying. Look at our main figureheads, Eddie, JT, Purches, Weatherstone (met at Burnley) and Fletch coaching, Richard Hughes and Andy Howe recruiting. Fitness, forget his name but same guy since League 1. All of them together for five years.

It’s been successful, only an idiot would argue otherwise but it has become strained as the older players struggle and if we want to look at areas of improvement and moving on I would say the balance isn’t there of Premier League background people, particularly to work on the defensive record.
 
Neil Dawson said:
I’m not concerned about an individuals background, I’ve stated that. I’m concerned with the fact that you can see big holes in player development, injuries and basic defending tactics. That leads me to look at the backroom team. None of them have a background at the level their players play at. I wouldn’t even be bothered if 70% of them didn’t meet that criteria if Eddie thought they were a good team. But 100% makes no sense to me and I don’t think it’s ‘weird’ to question that.
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So this started as a thread about
Neil Dawson said:
I’m not concerned about an individuals background, I’ve stated that. I’m concerned with the fact that you can see big holes in player development, injuries and basic defending tactics. That leads me to look at the backroom team. None of them have a background at the level their players play at. I wouldn’t even be bothered if 70% of them didn’t meet that criteria if Eddie thought they were a good team. But 100% makes no sense to me and I don’t think it’s ‘weird’ to question that.
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So you started this as a thread about our training methods being potentially connected to the unusual number of injuries in the squad. Now you've extended it to criticise player development and defending tactics. Brilliant, Neil - congratulations on hijacking your own thread!!
 
fuzzydude said:
So this started as a thread about

So you started this as a thread about our training methods being potentially connected to the unusual number of injuries in the squad. Now you've extended it to criticise player development and defending tactics. Brilliant, Neil - congratulations on hijacking your own thread!!
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I always think you are better to focus on causes than symptoms. In my opinion all our stretched symptoms are linked to one cause. All our good points are also linked to the same cause. Hence why this is about balance and not an overhaul.
 
Neil Dawson said:
I’m not sure you are understanding what I am saying. It’s probably me so I will have another try at being clearer.

I’m not worried about one particular individuals background. Collectively though I think there should be a balance. In any business people look, normally, to be successful through a balance of promoting people from within that grew up with the philosophy and blending them with new ideas from outside, particularly when entering new fields. I think we have done all the former and none of the latter.

If you were recruiting a senior exec team for an rapidly growing organisation and the chief exec said I want every single one of them to have come from the days we were a small company or be a relative you wouldn’t say ‘yes that’s advisable’ you’d say ‘it’s your call and that’s good as a guiding philosophy but have you thought about maybe mixing in a few with big company experience as you enter that world’

That’s all I am saying. Look at our main figureheads, Eddie, JT, Purches, Weatherstone (met at Burnley) and Fletch coaching, Richard Hughes and Andy Howe recruiting. Fitness, forget his name but same guy since League 1. All of them together for five years.

It’s been successful, only an idiot would argue otherwise but it has become strained as the older players struggle and if we want to look at areas of improvement and moving on I would say the balance isn’t there of Premier League background people, particularly to work on the defensive record.
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You're putting the cart before the horse, as I say, forget who they are or where they came from and simply ask "are they good enough?" and "how do we improve?" both questions should be addressed collectively and as a group.

If an individual isn't good enough replace them, as he has done in the team, if the training philosophy and/or methods aren't working then change them.

You're fixated on who these people are and where they've come from. It's not relevant.

If I had a rapidly growing company I would ask myself "are these people good enough?" and "how do we improve?"
 
Well, on the one hand I think that the only question that ultimately matters is if there is a problem with the training methods or not.
On the other hand, I agree (I think) with Neil in that it would be advisable to bring in (if this has not already happened) outside experts (think people with PhDs from Germany or the USA) who can bring in new theories that may be outside the realm of what our current people are familiar with.
On the other hand, maybe our current people read all the latest scientific papers in their fields and are fully abreast of all this.
 
SlowDownDerek said:
You're putting the cart before the horse, as I say, forget who they are or where they came from and simply ask "are they good enough?" and "how do we improve?" both questions should be addressed collectively and as a group.

If an individual isn't good enough replace them, as he has done in the team, if the training philosophy and/or methods aren't working then change them.

You're fixated on who these people are and where they've come from. It's not relevant.

If I had a rapidly growing company I would ask myself "are these people good enough?" and "how do we improve?"
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But when discussing it as a group, JT and Purches aren’t going to say ‘the problem here boss is we don’t have anyone at a senior level who has experience stopping world class attacking play or successfully coaching defending to an elite league outfit’ it would be like a turkey voting for Christmas.

I’ve answered your questions. Yes we are good enough to keep the current batch of players in this league. Personally I don’t think we have the personnel to push on beyond this, integrate new styles with a new group of players and challenge top eight while juggling cup runs. I hope I’m wrong btw. What should we do about it... bring in a couple of top level coaches to augment the great internal team we have built.

I also am fully aware this, relative to our history, is an unbelievable position I just don’t believe we should stand still as our real position is mid to bottom of league one.

I think we either push on with new facilities and upgrading the backroom team or we will end up back there and what a waste that would be.
 
Neil Dawson said:
Possibly, possibly not at a lower level. All the main figures have either been around since the championship or our former lower league players that have joined since. It’s them that sets the strategy.
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Possibly!!.....:D....i'm sorry Neil but i was thinking that this was a debate on why [according to you] we haven't upgraded our fitness coaches since league 1....now it turns out you have no idea if we have or not!.... :slap:

Is this the reason why you now appear to be trying to steer the debate more towards the ability of our coaching staff?
 
SlowDownDerek said:
You're putting the cart before the horse, as I say, forget who they are or where they came from and simply ask "are they good enough?" and "how do we improve?" both questions should be addressed collectively and as a group.

If an individual isn't good enough replace them, as he has done in the team, if the training philosophy and/or methods aren't working then change them.

You're fixated on who these people are and where they've come from. It's not relevant.

If I had a rapidly growing company I would ask myself "are these people good enough?" and "how do we improve?"
Click to expand...

And it would be a question that only you would know the answer tbf....
 
Neil Dawson said:
But when discussing it as a group, JT and Purches aren’t going to say ‘the problem here boss is we don’t have anyone at a senior level who has experience stopping world class attacking play or successfully coaching defending to an elite league outfit’ it would be like a turkey voting for Christmas.

I’ve answered your questions. Yes we are good enough to keep the current batch of players in this league. Personally I don’t think we have the personnel to push on beyond this, integrate new styles with a new group of players and challenge top eight while juggling cup runs. I hope I’m wrong btw. What should we do about it... bring in a couple of top level coaches to augment the great internal team we have built.

I also am fully aware this, relative to our history, is an unbelievable position I just don’t believe we should stand still as our real position is mid to bottom of league one.

I think we either push on with new facilities and upgrading the backroom team or we will end up back there and what a waste that would be.
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It may well be a good idea to bring in X or Y coach - they are conducting a review as one would assume they do all the time.

My issue with what you say is you've confidently diagnosed the problem despite having no clue whatsoever what goes on behind the scenes. You don't know what is behind our success or our weaknesses - how could you? These criticisms of yours that we don't have some unnamed coach that will make everything better are all too easy - same as when the unnamed signings that our "failed transfer policy (TM)" were ten times better than our actual signings.

Clearly they need to constantly evolve and ask questions. They need to review their playing, coaching and medical staff to make sure they are up to it. It seems as if this is exactly what they are doing if the Sun is right. We'll never know the details though so making broad brush generalisations based on the very limited information we do know about these people seems pretty pointless to me.
 
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