Joshua King

Can't chalk Dom's pens off in the Dom/Surridge comparison because Surridge takes, and misses, pens for them.

As a side note - I do not like the way Dom runs up to take his pens at all. Gives me no confidence that he'll score, although obviously he does.
Agree He doesnt look at the ball either! Cant argue at the result though Its a great style when they go in unlike Rashford in the euros
 
Difficult to argue that fewer injury problems wouldn't have got us that point we needed. Still, something was seriously wrong in that dressing room - the two key periods was the series of six pointers in early 2020 that they just didn't show up for and then the pathetic return from lockdown. A team that deserved relegation unfortunately, despite the fact that Villa were even worse.

I remember us against Norwich at home: dire
So if you had a striker that scored 0 goals from open play but 15 from penalties, versus a striker that scored 15 from open play but 0 from penalties you'd treat them in the same vein or as prolific as each other?

Penalties count... no different to close range shots... even more nerve required in fact. Also, who wins the pens? Often the strikers.
 
I remember us against Norwich at home: dire


Penalties count... no different to close range shots... even more nerve required in fact. Also, who wins the pens? Often the strikers.

Of course they count and require nerve, but to claim they hold the same weight as goals scored during play isn't accurate at all.

Someone who can score regularly from open play tends to command high transfer fees. Someone who scores penalties all the time, but is bang average is unlikely to hold down a place in a starting 11.
 
Of course they count and require nerve, but to claim they hold the same weight as goals scored during play isn't accurate at all.

Someone who can score regularly from open play tends to command high transfer fees. Someone who scores penalties all the time, but is bang average is unlikely to hold down a place in a starting 11.
James Ward-Prowse manages it!
 
Of course they count and require nerve, but to claim they hold the same weight as goals scored during play isn't accurate at all.

Someone who can score regularly from open play tends to command high transfer fees. Someone who scores penalties all the time, but is bang average is unlikely to hold down a place in a starting 11.

Hypothetically speaking, maybe not but how many players are there who only ever score pens nd are never involved in other goals or key play? Not many. Then there is the question about the striker who just gets the close range, easier efforts. I don't see the difference between that and only scoring pens... also don't think there are many strikers who only score close range, easier goals, so that's another hypothetical really. It's very hard to measure, which is why I think it's easier to say a goal is just a goal whether a pen, easy, close range shot or trickier one.
 
James Ward-Prowse manages it!

I think possibly your dislike of Soton (if you do dislike them) may be clouding how you see things there. Ward Prowse is a fine player who should have been in the Euros in my opinion. One of the best free kick and corner takers there is. He has a great pass on him. So much more to him than penalties. Hope he plays for us one day.
 
For me, King did too much too well for too long to be so negatively remembered for a wet fart of a finish to his career here. He could have handled certain stuff much better but I feel there’s negativity from the clubs side too that we won’t get to properly see.

Anyone booing Wilson needs their head examined. Club legend.

These two are in contrast to Fraser, who really only performed like a star for one season and then committed a more personal betrayal of Howe. The manager who helped him settle in, turn his lifestyle around and near enough fathered him for 8 years. Even THEN I just don’t have the stomach to boo any of our former players; I’m a bit of a softy in that respect.
 
So if you had a striker that scored 0 goals from open play but 15 from penalties, versus a striker that scored 15 from open play but 0 from penalties you'd treat them in the same vein or as prolific as each other?
Well that wouldn’t happen but a goal is a goal. If you win 1-0 it’s just as important if it’s a penalty as a 30 yard overhead kick. You have to take them and there has been many prolific strikers Rush, Defoe, Ronaldo who nobody questions how many of their goals were pens.

You make an extreme example to make a point which I get but the point I was making was people tend to want to take penalties out of numbers for the strikers they are dissing and leave them in for the ones they like.
 
Well that wouldn’t happen but a goal is a goal. If you win 1-0 it’s just as important if it’s a penalty as a 30 yard overhead kick. You have to take them and there has been many prolific strikers Rush, Defoe, Ronaldo who nobody questions how many of their goals were pens.

You make an extreme example to make a point which I get but the point I was making was people tend to want to take penalties out of numbers for the strikers they are dissing and leave them in for the ones they like.

Surely its very straightforward and you have to simply compare like with like. If King took penalties and Wilson didn't then the number of penalties in their respective totals is absolutely relevant if you're trying to use stats to prove who's the better player.

Suarez and Drogba would both have scored lots more goals for Liverpool and Chelsea respectively if Gerrard and Lampard weren't the designated penalty takers. It's obviously the relevant if comparing their totals to other strikers.
 
I think possibly your dislike of Soton (if you do dislike them) may be clouding how you see things there. Ward Prowse is a fine player who should have been in the Euros in my opinion. One of the best free kick and corner takers there is. He has a great pass on him. So much more to him than penalties. Hope he plays for us one day.
To be fair he is good at dead balls, not sure he does much else though. Certainly a lot of Saints fans I know think they should have got rid in the summer when offered silly money for him
 
Well that wouldn’t happen but a goal is a goal. If you win 1-0 it’s just as important if it’s a penalty as a 30 yard overhead kick. You have to take them and there has been many prolific strikers Rush, Defoe, Ronaldo who nobody questions how many of their goals were pens.

You make an extreme example to make a point which I get but the point I was making was people tend to want to take penalties out of numbers for the strikers they are dissing and leave them in for the ones they like.

Indeed it was extreme example and did wonder about using it. I agree they're important and there is pressure. Its definitely a skill for sure, the best ones over time are usually mentally strong with ice running through their veins. particularly if its a game defining penalty - then add in being away from home in a hostile atmosphere.

Reality is though, if you were to offer a manager a guaranteed penalty every game or 2 half chances, I'm certain they'd take the single guaranteed penalty every time. The stats are that 3 quarters of penalties are scored. Over the course of the season thats roughly 35 goals.

A squad of professional footballers is always going to have a couple of above average penalty takers, as it just needs someone to be cool and be able to strike a ball cleanly. The squad is pretty much guarenteed to have a number of composed players, they then just need to be able to strike a ball cleanly - which again, by being prom footballers who've been kicking a ball, practicing most days over 20 years, is a given.

The variables involved are nothing like scoring from open play. I get that some players are better at being instinctive than dealing everything that comes with a set piece. But due to all the possibilities involved with scoring during a game, those players are much more valuable than someone who slots home penalties.

Gloria may say some players find it easier, but a player that consistently finds himself with and converts easy chances when having to deal with top level defenders, different angles, positions is going to be making himself and clubs he plays for an awful lot of money over his career. A player that consistently finds himself with easy chances at the highest level(and converting a high %) is incredibly valuable... it simply doesn;t happen by accident in elite football unless you have something special about you. Generally a player thats getting that many chances is going to be surrounded by top players that create chances, because he's a top player himself. If he wasn't, he wouldn;t be playing in that team!

I'm pretty certain, in fact there are, lower league players/strikers who are deadly with penalties and if they stepped up to the PL just to take pens, they'd continue with that high conversion rate (maybe once adapted to larger crowds), but they'd be out of their depth leading the line and being relied on to score 10-15 goals from open play (even with better players around them) as their finishing, technique, pace, anticipation, positioning, strength, football intelligence - or whatever mix of key attributes, wouldn;t be good enough.

Basically, put most prolific League 2 strikers/penalty takers in a prem team, and he's highly likely to continue his penalty conversion rate, or at least close to it. It's extremely unlikely he'll get anywhere near the same amount of goals from outfield play, as he'd get marked out of the game by top level defenders, despite have better player around him. If that wasn't the case, why would top tier clubs pay 10's of millions for strikers, when they could sign someone from the lower leagues for a fraction of the cost all the time?

I'm not saying its 'easy' as such to score penalties and it does require certain attributes, and of course at a high level a goals a goal, but thats too simplistic and not accurate when you drill into it further.

No one is questioning the players you mentioned as they also scored consistently from open play at the highest level for years. If you started saying x was better than x because he scored more, people may then start looking closer at other stats, such as how many were penalties.

Anyway, too much coffee, sorry for long post! :D
 
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Indeed it was extreme example and did wonder about using it. I agree they're important and there is pressure. Its definitely a skill for sure, the best ones over time are usually mentally strong with ice running through their veins. particularly if its a game defining penalty - then add in being away from home in a hostile atmosphere.

Reality is though, if you were to offer a manager a guaranteed penalty every game or 2 half chances, I'm certain they'd take the single guaranteed penalty every time. The stats are that 3 quarters of penalties are scored. Over the course of the season thats roughly 35 goals.

A squad of professional footballers is always going to have a couple of above average penalty takers, as it just needs someone to be cool and be able to strike a ball cleanly. The squad is pretty much guarenteed to have a number of composed players, they then just need to be able to strike a ball cleanly - which again, by being prom footballers who've been kicking a ball, practicing most days over 20 years, is a given.

The variables involved are nothing like scoring from open play. I get that some players are better at being instinctive than dealing everything that comes with a set piece. But due to all the possibilities involved with scoring during a game, those players are much more valuable than someone who slots home penalties.

Gloria may say some players find it easier, but a player that consistently finds himself with and converts easy chances when having to deal with top level defenders, different angles, positions is going to be making himself and clubs he plays for an awful lot of money over his career. A player that consistently finds himself with easy chances at the highest level(and converting a high %) is incredibly valuable... it simply doesn;t happen by accident in elite football unless you have something special about you. Generally a player thats getting that many chances is going to be surrounded by top players that create chances, because he's a top player himself. If he wasn't, he wouldn;t be playing in that team!

I'm pretty certain, in fact there are, lower league players/strikers who are deadly with penalties and if they stepped up to the PL just to take pens, they'd continue with that high conversion rate (maybe once adapted to larger crowds), but they'd be out of their depth leading the line and being relied on to score 10-15 goals from open play (even with better players around them) as their finishing, technique, pace, anticipation, positioning, strength, football intelligence - or whatever mix of key attributes, wouldn;t be good enough.

Basically, put most prolific League 2 strikers/penalty takers in a prem team, and he's highly likely to continue his penalty conversion rate, or at least close to it. It's extremely unlikely he'll get anywhere near the same amount of goals from outfield play, as he'd get marked out of the game by top level defenders, despite have better player around him. If that wasn't the case, why would top tier clubs pay 10's of millions for strikers, when they could sign someone from the lower leagues for a fraction of the cost all the time?

I'm not saying its 'easy' as such to score penalties and it does require certain attributes, and of course at a high level a goals a goal, but thats too simplistic and not accurate when you drill into it further.

No one is questioning the players you mentioned as they also scored consistently from open play at the highest level for years. If you started saying x was better than x because he scored more, people may then start looking closer at other stats, such as how many were penalties.

Anyway, too much coffee, sorry for long post! :D
Yes! Agree. My point is as your last paragraph and Del says is compare eggs with eggs and don’t bend it to help an argument. We’ve all probably done it at some point-to further or diminish a players cause!
 
Asked some Sheff Utd fans what they thought of him after we played them and all were positive about him. Some said fitness was an issue but that's as negative as it went.
Interesting player. Mentally not on his game enough. Potential wise… he was the leading light in the French U20 and U21 squad and had Thierry Henry assigned to mentor him by the French FA when he came to us to keep him firing. You don’t do that for average. His first goal at the weekend was superb.. hope he comes good.
 
Interesting player. Mentally not on his game enough. Potential wise… he was the leading light in the French U20 and U21 squad and had Thierry Henry assigned to mentor him by the French FA when he came to us to keep him firing. You don’t do that for average. His first goal at the weekend was superb.. hope he comes good.
I always wanted him to do well for us (unsurprisingly) but, like you say, his head never seemed to be on it. Has everything in his locker to succeed on the face of it, I just don't think he'll be able to pull it all together consistently enough to fulfill his potential. Almost like someone else we had at the club at the same time.
 

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