Joshua King

stevethepirate65 said:
The likes of King, Fraser and Wilson not playing for Eddie in the final season says a lot about them. None of them would have had the careers they had if it wasn’t for Eddie.

The rot with King set in a lot further back. Sure, he had his injuries, but the sulking started when he didn’t get the move to Man Utd (never mind that he couldn’t reasonably expect us to sell him on deadline day while battling relegation and without the time to replace him).

There was the occasional glimpse of what he could do, like the Everton match, but beyond that he couldn’t have made it more plain that he didn’t want to be here.

Compare it to someone like Sarr at Watford, who when he didn’t get the move he likely would have wanted, instead knuckled down and helped his team get promoted.

And then King didn’t exactly set the world alight at Everton either. Apparently that was someone else’s fault too.

There’s a reason that Nathan Ake was treated to a very fond farewell, whereas people remember King less fondly. Even Rico and Wilshere, who were hardly club legends, seemed to have the majority of fans wishing them luck.
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But my point is where is the EVIDENCE for your claims? A lot of it is speculation and feeling.

King sulking when he didn't get the move to United? From what I remember he said he felt messed around by United then but didn't express discontent for Eddie. He grafted when he played and scored some goals and had others disallowed because of VAR. As for playing in key matches so he woukd get noticed... That doesn't make sense. Clubs are watching players all the time whether they are playing them or other teams. Why would Eddie have apparently been keen to take King to Celtic if as you say, he had downed tools at that point?

Yes, he was unhappy about West Ham but apparently, he had been told to stay in Norway for pre-season as he was going to be sold. Then he had his shirt number given to Brooks and was then benched most of the time. Two sides to it...

As for Everton, reports are that the players were surprised King didn't get a start. He played alright when he came on. One goal disallowed for offside another handled on the line; won the free kick that DCL scored from.

Basically, you're demonising him. He made mistakes and talks too much to the Norwegian press for my liking but I really don't think he's as bad as some are saying.

As for Ake, who knows how he might have acted if he had not been granted a move he wanted? Look at Kane and Van Dijk and the way they have behaved. When pushed, players do selfish things to try to achieve their dreams. Maybe King faked a migrane but I think it's unfair to say he downed tools in the relegation season... He had hamstring problems for a lot of it.
 
Gloria Hunter said:
But my point is where is the EVIDENCE for your claims? A lot of it is speculation and feeling.

King sulking when he didn't get the move to United? From what I remember he said he felt messed around by United then but didn't express discontent for Eddie. He grafted when he played and scored some goals and had others disallowed because of VAR. As for playing in key matches so he woukd get noticed... That doesn't make sense. Clubs are watching players all the time whether they are playing them or other teams. Why would Eddie have apparently been keen to take King to Celtic if as you say, he had downed tools at that point?

Yes, he was unhappy about West Ham but apparently, he had been told to stay in Norway for pre-season as he was going to be sold. Then he had his shirt number given to Brooks and was then benched most of the time. Two sides to it...

As for Everton, reports are that the players were surprised King didn't get a start. He played alright when he came on. One goal disallowed for offside another handled on the line; won the free kick that DCL scored from.

Basically, you're demonising him. He made mistakes and talks too much to the Norwegian press for my liking but I really don't think he's as bad as some are saying.

As for Ake, who knows how he might have acted if he had not been granted a move he wanted? Look at Kane and Van Dijk and the way they have behaved. When pushed, players do selfish things to try to achieve their dreams. Maybe King faked a migrane but I think it's unfair to say he downed tools in the relegation season... He had hamstring problems for a lot of it.
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Good post.
 
Gloria Hunter said:
But my point is where is the EVIDENCE for your claims? A lot of it is speculation and feeling.

King sulking when he didn't get the move to United? From what I remember he said he felt messed around by United then but didn't express discontent for Eddie. He grafted when he played and scored some goals and had others disallowed because of VAR. As for playing in key matches so he woukd get noticed... That doesn't make sense. Clubs are watching players all the time whether they are playing them or other teams. Why would Eddie have apparently been keen to take King to Celtic if as you say, he had downed tools at that point?

Yes, he was unhappy about West Ham but apparently, he had been told to stay in Norway for pre-season as he was going to be sold. Then he had his shirt number given to Brooks and was then benched most of the time. Two sides to it...

As for Everton, reports are that the players were surprised King didn't get a start. He played alright when he came on. One goal disallowed for offside another handled on the line; won the free kick that DCL scored from.

Basically, you're demonising him. He made mistakes and talks too much to the Norwegian press for my liking but I really don't think he's as bad as some are saying.

As for Ake, who knows how he might have acted if he had not been granted a move he wanted? Look at Kane and Van Dijk and the way they have behaved. When pushed, players do selfish things to try to achieve their dreams. Maybe King faked a migrane but I think it's unfair to say he downed tools in the relegation season... He had hamstring problems for a lot of it.
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You mention Kane. That was speculation.
In fact he went on holiday, was given extra time off.
He then had to isolate on his return.
 
Gloria Hunter said:
But my point is where is the EVIDENCE for your claims? A lot of it is speculation and feeling.

King sulking when he didn't get the move to United? From what I remember he said he felt messed around by United then but didn't express discontent for Eddie. He grafted when he played and scored some goals and had others disallowed because of VAR. As for playing in key matches so he woukd get noticed... That doesn't make sense. Clubs are watching players all the time whether they are playing them or other teams. Why would Eddie have apparently been keen to take King to Celtic if as you say, he had downed tools at that point?

Yes, he was unhappy about West Ham but apparently, he had been told to stay in Norway for pre-season as he was going to be sold. Then he had his shirt number given to Brooks and was then benched most of the time. Two sides to it...

As for Everton, reports are that the players were surprised King didn't get a start. He played alright when he came on. One goal disallowed for offside another handled on the line; won the free kick that DCL scored from.

Basically, you're demonising him. He made mistakes and talks too much to the Norwegian press for my liking but I really don't think he's as bad as some are saying.

As for Ake, who knows how he might have acted if he had not been granted a move he wanted? Look at Kane and Van Dijk and the way they have behaved. When pushed, players do selfish things to try to achieve their dreams. Maybe King faked a migrane but I think it's unfair to say he downed tools in the relegation season... He had hamstring problems for a lot of it.
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https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ews/man-utd-joshua-king-transfer-20562345.amp

King’s own thoughts on the Man Utd saga. Guess it’s all down to interpretations, but to me he sounds more annoyed with us than with Utd.

Beyond that, I could turn your question back on you. Where’s your evidence that Eddie wanted King at Celtic beyond idle paper speculation?

As for Everton, if he’d been worth a start, Ancelotti would have picked him. He didn’t get where he was in management by benching players for no reason.

Maybe a chunk of this is down to feeling, but that doesn’t mean it’s wrong. It was obvious to anyone watching that Fraser didn’t fancy it - something he later publicly admitted to. Wilson was one I initially gave the benefit of the doubt too - that changed when I saw him last season busting a gut for Newcastle in a manner that he manifestly didn’t for us in his last season.

As for Ake, who knows? He was our best player for three seasons, I find it hard to believe that there was no interest in him during that time. Yet that didn’t stop him giving his all.

Maybe I’m being unfair in saying he downed tools in the relegation season, but the problems definitely started there.
 
Gloria Hunter said:
... too many swear words?
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I don't always succeed but I try to be civil.

He had 12 league appearances, with almost 900 minutes last season but no goals.

I think it's unfair to judge him on goals in the EPL but he did score in 3 of the 15 games since the United game.

Regarding injuries I was trying to link Kriss Temple's Tweets

One about recurring back problem with a #commentaway tag.
One with "hamstring problem" quoted.
One with retweeting the shirt number changes saying rocket scientists not needed #king
One about how the club had accepted a couple.of bids because they just want rid of him

I think the final thing was that we had a 25 man squad and at different points injuries in double figures. A handful of players not pulling their weight can and did have a major contribution to our relegation.
 
What I find interesting is that many people don't believe a word the club says on any number of matters you care to mention and yet in regards to Josh King, he's a liar and they ain't.
 
stevethepirate65 said:
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ews/man-utd-joshua-king-transfer-20562345.amp

King’s own thoughts on the Man Utd saga. Guess it’s all down to interpretations, but to me he sounds more annoyed with us than with Utd.

Beyond that, I could turn your question back on you. Where’s your evidence that Eddie wanted King at Celtic beyond idle paper speculation?

As for Everton, if he’d been worth a start, Ancelotti would have picked him. He didn’t get where he was in management by benching players for no reason.

Maybe a chunk of this is down to feeling, but that doesn’t mean it’s wrong. It was obvious to anyone watching that Fraser didn’t fancy it - something he later publicly admitted to. Wilson was one I initially gave the benefit of the doubt too - that changed when I saw him last season busting a gut for Newcastle in a manner that he manifestly didn’t for us in his last season.

As for Ake, who knows? He was our best player for three seasons, I find it hard to believe that there was no interest in him during that time. Yet that didn’t stop him giving his all.

Maybe I’m being unfair in saying he downed tools in the relegation season, but the problems definitely started there.
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Yeah, I think I read that before. I don't know but to me he felt gutted that his hopes were raised and then fell through. The club were given what 10-15 mins to decide? It probably hurt him that the club he joined at 16 didn't think he was worth more than 10-15 mins. Had just treated him like a pawn on a chessboard so to me, that's where the bitterness comes from - the fact they didn't reignite their interest was proof that he was that pawn really. I seem to remember at the time Eddie saying he had dealt with everything really well, given how upset he was.

As for Everton, one of my rare Everton friends has said he was shocked King was never given a chance, given how awfully they were playing. Reckons he was clearly just bought as back up at the last minute as a panic buy but Everton can't have really had much intention of ever keeping him... too old, relegation prejudice, too injury prone... Whatever it was, he reckons he was a short term bench sitter while the next season was planned for... that he was set up to fail for that reason. Who knows if there is anything in that?

You're right about not knowing if the stories about Eddie wanting King were true. As with anything, it's all rumour and speculation. Kris Temple's comments I never heard or read. He is a journo, though so speculation is likely to be his middle name. I can well imagine the club wanted King gone. He was expensive and he wasn't playing. The speculation and whole saga was just a distraction. I don't think King was perfect. His tendency to speak to the media shows an immaturity really. I cringed when I read his comments about Ancelotti lying to him and just thought "Why are you telling the press this?".Needs to knuckle down now and let his football do the talking. There was definitely a relationship breakdown with Bournemouth (I think during summer before last season and the West Ham negotations). Most relationship breakdowns involve blame on both sides, though, so I think the same here. Maybe the club being keen to sell, telling him he could stay in Norway for pre-season because he was going to be sold, taking his shirt off him showed just how unimportant he was to them but when he wanted desperately to move on, they then wouldn't let him. He then fakes the migrane (allegedly) because he's feeling messed around/like that pawn on a chessboard again, maybe so furious that if he goes to the match, he thinks he's gonna explode. Who knows.. If he took the sickie, he reacted badly but I think we've all reacted badly to things at times. Doesn't mean he deserves the persistent negativity. Surely, the last 12 months has paid back enough anyway.
 
Gloria Hunter said:
Yeah, I think I read that before. I don't know but to me he felt gutted that his hopes were raised and then fell through. The club were given what 10-15 mins to decide? It probably hurt him that the club he joined at 16 didn't think he was worth more than 10-15 mins. Had just treated him like a pawn on a chessboard so to me, that's where the bitterness comes from - the fact they didn't reignite their interest was proof that he was that pawn really. I seem to remember at the time Eddie saying he had dealt with everything really well, given how upset he was.

As for Everton, one of my rare Everton friends has said he was shocked King was never given a chance, given how awfully they were playing. Reckons he was clearly just bought as back up at the last minute as a panic buy but Everton can't have really had much intention of ever keeping him... too old, relegation prejudice, too injury prone... Whatever it was, he reckons he was a short term bench sitter while the next season was planned for... that he was set up to fail for that reason. Who knows if there is anything in that?

You're right about not knowing if the stories about Eddie wanting King were true. As with anything, it's all rumour and speculation. Kris Temple's comments I never heard or read. He is a journo, though so speculation is likely to be his middle name. I can well imagine the club wanted King gone. He was expensive and he wasn't playing. The speculation and whole saga was just a distraction. I don't think King was perfect. His tendency to speak to the media shows an immaturity really. I cringed when I read his comments about Ancelotti lying to him and just thought "Why are you telling the press this?".Needs to knuckle down now and let his football do the talking. There was definitely a relationship breakdown with Bournemouth (I think during summer before last season and the West Ham negotations). Most relationship breakdowns involve blame on both sides, though, so I think the same here. Maybe the club being keen to sell, telling him he could stay in Norway for pre-season because he was going to be sold, taking his shirt off him showed just how unimportant he was to them but when he wanted desperately to move on, they then wouldn't let him. He then fakes the migrane (allegedly) because he's feeling messed around/like that pawn on a chessboard again, maybe so furious that if he goes to the match, he thinks he's gonna explode. Who knows.. If he took the sickie, he reacted badly but I think we've all reacted badly to things at times. Doesn't mean he deserves the persistent negativity. Surely, the last 12 months has paid back enough anyway.
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Most relationship breakdowns involve fault on both sides……true, but if a footballer falls out with two managers in five years you have to look at him as the constant in the equation
 
adam0102 said:
Most relationship breakdowns involve fault on both sides……true, but if a footballer falls out with two managers in five years you have to look at him as the constant in the equation
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Not sure he fell out with either manager. JT seems too nice to fall out with - was the big wigs pulling the transfer cards I think and Ancelotti just didn't play him. Billing fell out with Huddersfield boss and disrespected JT with his online comments yet most of us think he's okay... Depends on whether the 'evidence' matches what we want it to I suppose.
 
Media twist words to suit their agenda.
Owners\clubs\managers tell their biased side to the story.
Players tell their biased side to the story.

As fans, all we can really judge a player on is their performances.

The first few (couple?) months King didn't look fantastic - hence the 'not fit to wear the shirt' thread (not getting into that, just that he couldn't have looked that flash for the thread to start). For the next 4 seasons he was one of our best performers.

In my, sofa watching position, opinion, from Christmas to the end of the relegation season he did not play well very often, he looked disinterested a lot of the time - not as bad as Fraser, but still not the King we saw in the previous 4 seasons.

Then when he was on the pitch in the half Championship year, he didn't look all that good either.
 
thegazzyb said:
Yes you are right. I can recall a couple of post match interviews where Gozza was saying that some players were not doing enough. It was more general than Cookie's comments though, who said something about players with 25 million pound valuations or something, which everyone more or less instantly assumed to be aimed at Brooks. That was the difference. Gozzo was having a gripe in general about some of the lack of effort from various teammates and Cookie, by mentioning the price tag, more or less singled out Brooks ( probably unintentionally, he was probably just using it as an example of players needing to prove their worth on the pitch !).
But yes, Gozza did complain about a lack of effort and commitment from his teammates in a couple of interviews, he was very frustrated by it.
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Agree - definitely on more than one occasion.
He was really frustrated in those interviews and bit his lip to stop naming players …
 
Crazy! Reporter on sky just said she is happy for Josh King. He has had loans at Blackburn etc and a 'spell' at Bournemouth. Being at Watford he has finally found himself a home and the chance 'at last' to make his name at the top level.

Clearly she doesnt know about his 5 years with us in the PL when he DID make a name for himself. The 'home' quote makes me laugh though!
 
What are you talking about? He was very close to getting a hat trick. A hat trick of open goal misses that is, just the two today. Still I’m sure there are some on here who will still passionately claim that if his head was in the right place last season then he’d have torn the championship to shreds. I suppose he probably doesn’t want to be playing for Norway either, so unfair to judge him on that. Or Everton. Basically we will only judge him if he does well lol the guy is a spent force, sorry.
 
Waz afcb said:
What are you talking about? He was very close to getting a hat trick. A hat trick of open goal misses that is, just the two today. Still I’m sure there are some on here who will still passionately claim that if his head was in the right place last season then he’d have torn the championship to shreds. I suppose he probably doesn’t want to be playing for Norway either, so unfair to judge him on that. Or Everton. Basically we will only judge him if he does well lol the guy is a spent force, sorry.
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If his head was in the right place he would have torn the championship to shreds. Just as he has tore the Pl apart, he’s not 36. The fact of the matter is his head hasn’t been in the right place for ages, nor was it before we had him for large periods. He will be one of those talents that doesn’t fulfil anywhere near his potential. His potential we saw really for one to one and a half year max but there’s no denying it was better than anything we have seen before and since in that position.

Just because it didn’t end well doesn’t change that.
 
Neil Dawson said:
If his head was in the right place he would have torn the championship to shreds. Just as he has tore the Pl apart, he’s not 36. The fact of the matter is his head hasn’t been in the right place for ages, nor was it before we had him for large periods. He will be one of those talents that doesn’t fulfil anywhere near his potential. His potential we saw really for one to one and a half year max but there’s no denying it was better than anything we have seen before and since in that position.

Just because it didn’t end well doesn’t change that.
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I understand your perspective but let me present you with an alternative one: perhaps we only saw him perform to that level for the year that you mention because he just wasn’t talented enough to maintain those consistency levels. I agree that when he reached those levels he was the best we have ever had in his position, but as you rightly say he only really reached that level for one year. Even in our last season in the top flight you could see that he was steadily on the decline, he only managed three goals from open play and was pretty anonymous for the majority of the season. Sometimes players just have very good spells where they perform above themselves but are unable to maintain this, just ask Ryan Fraser.
 
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