Match Report and Mom v Everton

Neil Dawson said:
It’s handy though because it has given the ‘good old days’ fans a reason to play Surman until Christmas.
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:fish: Great Neil, always enjoy your points as they’re invariably interesting and thought provoking (should that just be provoking?!!) but the erstwhile journo in you loves a bit of polarising the debate :grinning:
 
Yep. Good old days fans.

Definition: ‘we used to play Exeter...the fact we are not justifies everything in our book, be grateful we got a corner in the PL, forget the £400m it’s a miracle we can compete, I don’t want anyone new to play just the ones that got us here (apart from Ake who has grown on me but only after his six months learning our way). If Eddie shot a puppy I would be stood there screaming ‘it would only have grown up to worry sheep’. Plan B...never....what do you want...a target man to lump it at...bah’

You know them. There’s about 20 on here amongst all the sane people. :grinning:

*this post is heavily laced in irony....don’t take the bait.
 
Neil Dawson said:
Begovic gave it to him when nobody was expecting it, let alone Cook. It was suicidal.

It’s handy though because it has given the ‘good old days’ fans a reason to play Surman until Christmas.
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Didn't take you long to come up with a cheap shot to try and work your way out of a discussion!
 
Neil Dawson said:
Nobody on this board would say Gosling or Surman is better than Cook. Would they?

So the sooner he gets in the side the better.

Two wins against bang average sides does not justify picking Gosling and Surman against Chelsea. There was no creative play in midfield at all yesterday our only tactic of effect was to give it to Smith while he was on the pitch or to play it down the channels for King and Wilson to take on Keane.

We can’t afford to play without an England international midfielder and hopefully soon Lerma will join him.
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All those teams we beat are going to be 'bang average I guess.

Players make their case for inclusion every Saturday, and during training in the week. Eddie picks the players who make the best TEAM. They will all (and do) make mistakes for us to pick over.
 
Well at the risk of being stuffed into Neil's box, I thought yesterday's match was great entertainment and testimony to how far Eddie's brought us. We went toe to toe and were equal to an Everton side on the up ( last week we beat an expensive West Ham team away)

For "Good ol'days" supporters, our squad cost and are paid eyewatering amounts but not as much as Everton or West Ham and they have established youth development programmes. Compare the cost of the squads and the quality of their own youth products, we're privileged to have a team that are able to give them a match ( in my simple opinion ). That is down to Eddie's genius, his old buddies staff and his shrewd use of Max's money : )

There's also a "Bad ol'days " supporters pidgeon hole. "I've seen bad players/tactics/ football in Division 3 or 4 for decades it's the same in the Prem" : )

This isn't to say people aren't allowed to question Eddie or share their opinions about players and tactics. We're all entitled to be dicks : )
 
table said:
Well at the risk of being stuffed into Neil's box, I thought yesterday's match was great entertainment and testimony to how far Eddie's brought us. We went toe to toe and were equal to an Everton side on the up ( last week we beat an expensive West Ham team away)

For "Good ol'days" supporters, our squad cost and are paid eyewatering amounts but not as much as Everton or West Ham and they have established youth development programmes. Compare the cost of the squads and the quality of their own youth products, we're privileged to have a team that are able to give them a match ( in my simple opinion ). That is down to Eddie's genius, his old buddies staff and his shrewd use of Max's money : )

There's also a "Bad ol'days " supporters pidgeon hole. "I've seen bad players/tactics/ football in Division 3 or 4 for decades it's the same in the Prem" : )

This isn't to say people aren't allowed to question Eddie or share their opinions about players and tactics. We're all entitled to be dicks : )
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I thought the same as you Table. Great entertainment and a great start to the season. If you re-read the report that’s pretty clear.

Thinking one player should start ahead of another is not slaying Eddies tactics. In seasons gone plenty of people wanted Smith or Ake to start in front of Francis and there were many that didn’t like King on the bench with Afobe in the side.

That’s the rich debate of football fans...it’s not saying we aren’t grateful for what we see.
 
I enjoyed Saturday very much. 7 points from 3 games with an unchanged team. It's just like the good old days. ;)

A key factor in our success the past 10 years has been partnerships. The last 2/3 seasons have seen these change. Pugh/Daniels. Francis/Ritchie. Cook/Elphick. Arter/Surman. They are being rebuilt. Last season was a real transition time. Impossible to call our best team. I think we are now seeing the start of the next set of partnerships.

Ake and Cook is the key one for me. King and Wilson is looking better than it was, although still a way to go. Front 2 or lone striker has been a conundrum for a while. Nothing has clicked for a while.

I think Surman and Gosling have become a good partnership. Eddie has always put the team above individuals. Fraser and Brooks wide has given us a stronger midfield than we have had for a while. Fraser has grown in confidence and plays more intelligently than before. Brooks gets it. The two of them track back and cover. This gives Surman and Gosling the confidence to play better. Brooks, for all his youth and PL inexperience, complements those around him in a way that Ibe can't. Ibe has his strengths but understanding the pattern of the game isn't one of them. Brooks sees it and covers. Ibe drifts and leaves gaps. The key in midfield is not giving the ball away firstly, then being creative with passing.

Cook may well be a better player than Gosling or Surman. I don't think that matters. We have beaten many teams who have 'better players' than us.

Smith and Brooks has huge potential. Fraser and Daniels is probably looking back not forward. Maybe Fraser and Rico will emerge on the left as the best combination?

Many teams last season were 'bang average' and we failed to beat them. The partnerships are stronger this year. It is clear that players know where everyone is, most of the time. Certainly more than previously. Confidence grows in direct proportion to the trust in those around you. Most players are confidence players.

A huge issue for us is not taking our chances. We seem to need more chances per goal than other teams, that may just be my critical eyes. Callum has missed 3 'nailed on' goals. I don't count the 2nd half one Saturday as he was pushed. Each of those would have had a huge impact on the games. Cardiff would have been out of sight.

But he has done brilliantly, as they all have. The team is being rebuilt. The transition is well under way.

These are exciting times.
 
fritter said:
I enjoyed Saturday very much. 7 points from 3 games with an unchanged team. It's just like the good old days. ;)

A key factor in our success the past 10 years has been partnerships. The last 2/3 seasons have seen these change. Pugh/Daniels. Francis/Ritchie. Cook/Elphick. Arter/Surman. They are being rebuilt. Last season was a real transition time. Impossible to call our best team. I think we are now seeing the start of the next set of partnerships.

Ake and Cook is the key one for me. King and Wilson is looking better than it was, although still a way to go. Front 2 or lone striker has been a conundrum for a while. Nothing has clicked for a while.

I think Surman and Gosling have become a good partnership. Eddie has always put the team above individuals. Fraser and Brooks wide has given us a stronger midfield than we have had for a while. Fraser has grown in confidence and plays more intelligently than before. Brooks gets it. The two of them track back and cover. This gives Surman and Gosling the confidence to play better. Brooks, for all his youth and PL inexperience, complements those around him in a way that Ibe can't. Ibe has his strengths but understanding the pattern of the game isn't one of them. Brooks sees it and covers. Ibe drifts and leaves gaps. The key in midfield is not giving the ball away firstly, then being creative with passing.

Cook may well be a better player than Gosling or Surman. I don't think that matters. We have beaten many teams who have 'better players' than us.

Smith and Brooks has huge potential. Fraser and Daniels is probably looking back not forward. Maybe Fraser and Rico will emerge on the left as the best combination?

Many teams last season were 'bang average' and we failed to beat them. The partnerships are stronger this year. It is clear that players know where everyone is, most of the time. Certainly more than previously. Confidence grows in direct proportion to the trust in those around you. Most players are confidence players.

A huge issue for us is not taking our chances. We seem to need more chances per goal than other teams, that may just be my critical eyes. Callum has missed 3 'nailed on' goals. I don't count the 2nd half one Saturday as he was pushed. Each of those would have had a huge impact on the games. Cardiff would have been out of sight.

But he has done brilliantly, as they all have. The team is being rebuilt. The transition is well under way.

These are exciting times.
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Good post Fritter. I agree Eddie has always built partnerships all over the pitch and put much sway on them. Surely his central midfield partnership in his head is Lerma and Cook though?

Most fans on here have argued that centre mid has been our most neglected area. We have had Arter in season one, Wilshere in two and Cook in three that rose above this.

Surman and Gosling in my mind aren’t a Premier League long term solution. The fact they lost the grip of the centre against the first decent team they played just bangs this home to me.
 
I'm sure you're right about cook and lerma. It's how change happens, the pace of it. Change the team while retaining balance. Key in midfield is someone running it. Surman holds the space well. He is calm and tidy. Gosling is a great harrier, and interceptor. Both get the odd goal, something arter stopped doing. Arter hasn't changed, 2 yellows in 2 games shows that. One should have been a red. An Arter who doesn't lose it is what is needed. (Pauses and looks at Lerma's disciplinary record).

I still think 3 in the middle is best against most teams. A triangle with one sitting deeper in almost a sweeper role, which is often what Surman does. I can see Ake doing that, but he is better where he is right now.

It has taken a long time to see Fraser and King develop into the players they are today. Wilson is still on that journey post injuries.

Rantie and Afobe never made it. Maybe Ibe will, maybe he won't.

It's going to be a huge change for Rico and Lerma. But it will come.

Chelsea will be interesting. I suspect he'll rest Brooks and I have a feeling he'll bring Ibe back. Wouldn't be surprised if Lerma came on with 30 minutes to go.
 
Good discussion. It’ll be interesting to dig this up at the end of the season, by which time one assumes our record signing and our future England captain will be running the midfield... but injuries, suspensions, form and 343/352 will mean that Surman and Gosling remain vital to the team and will play major roles in it. It should be fun finding out.
 
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I felt for long periods in the first half that we didn’t ‘own’ the midfield. Everton looked threatening (until the Richarlison sending off). We improved after that and it felt as if we would make the numerical advantage pay off. It was noticeable that S Cook especially had more time on the ball, they couldn’t press as effectively with only 10 men. And then came Smudger’s dismissal (never a red). I thought Lewis injected a lot of energy when he came on. We created more. Haven’t checked the stats but am certain we had more chances second half than first. Eddie’s substitutions worked well for me. Ibe impressed too. We finished the stronger of the two sides. I didn’t feel that way in the first half.
 
fritter said:
I'm sure you're right about cook and lerma. It's how change happens, the pace of it. Change the team while retaining balance. Key in midfield is someone running it. Surman holds the space well. He is calm and tidy. Gosling is a great harrier, and interceptor. Both get the odd goal, something arter stopped doing. Arter hasn't changed, 2 yellows in 2 games shows that. One should have been a red. An Arter who doesn't lose it is what is needed. (Pauses and looks at Lerma's disciplinary record).

I still think 3 in the middle is best against most teams. A triangle with one sitting deeper in almost a sweeper role, which is often what Surman does. I can see Ake doing that, but he is better where he is right now.

It has taken a long time to see Fraser and King develop into the players they are today. Wilson is still on that journey post injuries.

Rantie and Afobe never made it. Maybe Ibe will, maybe he won't.

It's going to be a huge change for Rico and Lerma. But it will come.

Chelsea will be interesting. I suspect he'll rest Brooks and I have a feeling he'll bring Ibe back. Wouldn't be surprised if Lerma came on with 30 minutes to go.
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I think he may play a midfield three against Chelsea with Cook back for Brooks and King and Fraser either side of Wilson. That’s what I’d do for tough games. We shall see!

I’ve said earlier we won’t get better back up than Gosling and Surman they are vital to the season. Cook had good spells with both of them last season though remember too if we are talking about partnerships. Saturdays entertaining game lacked someone to bring the ball out of centre midfield and make things happen though to me. We didn’t have the game gripped in the centre even against ten men.

I’m sure we will look at that before Stamford Bridge.
 
I don't think we ever really grip the midfield. We rely more on pace and pressing to put the opposition on the back foot. There are times every game where the middle opens right up. The only way to stop that is 3 in the middle I reckon. But that means losing someone upfront.

Either way, we now have cover for every position without Smith, Grabban or Afobe. For that I give 3 cheers.
 
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