Non - Brexit

#1
I've seen plenty of poll results done by different newspapers, but because it is only that paper's readers voting, the sample is obviously biased. While not completely unbiased, I'm curious to see where Bournemouth fans stand on the issue. How would you vote assuming the proposed deal from Donald Tusk is approved?
 
#3
Undecided.

I would call myself skeptically and caustically pro Europe. I don't want to be little England and I see the logic in coordinating with France, Germany Holland and Belgium etc on various economic, military, energy and suchlike matters.

I don't like what Europe has become, how overburdening and bloated it has become both in terms of it's bureaucracy and also in terms of it's hugely wide ranging nation membership. I also ferociously object to the fundamental principle of seeking ever great union.

I would ideally like Europe to revert back to something more along the lines of the smaller scale European operation that we in this country initially voted for and were sold on.

But in reality that's never going to happen, at least not without the whole thing collapsing and reforming from scratch, which would likely be terrible for many millions of people.

So I would await what reform (if anything) Cameron has managed to agree, think on it over the coming months, listen to arguments made, and will make a final decision.

If the reform is far enough, I'd likely vote to stay. If the reform is not far enough, as I suspect, then I might well be voting to leave.
 
#4
Largely agree with you, Mark, although I think the EU has become so far from what I'd like it to be (largely because it is swamped with former communist leaders from Central and Eastern Europe) that I am very skeptical that Cameron will be able to negotiate anything worthwhile.
 
#5
I understand the 90s desire to increase the membership of the union, but only if potential new members complied with specific criteria before membership is agreed, whereas we ended up with the fudging of the rules and the lottery-winning infrastructure improvements that the likes of Greece started out on without ever having the means to pay for.

I think history will show that was the point at which the EU became an impossible dream.

Basically, I think we're all stuffed. No borders, no legal way or reintroducing borders and a complete free-for-all.
 
#6
I'd vote to stay regardless of any "deal". The EU does need reform, particularly on its economic policies favouring big business.

However, as a moderating influence on extremes of Tory ideology it still plays an important role.
 
#7
I am a committed European and also think that all the nations of the earth should co-operate for mutual benefit.

However, the European Union was flawed from the start. It was never designed to be democratic. The only part that we can vote for directly - the Parliament - is marginalised. The real power lies with the Council (representatives from national governments), and, worse, the Commission (totally unelected).

It was constructed by a elite in Europe to suit the post-war political realpolitik and we, the people, had no say in its formation. Likewise, we have had no real chance to affect its development. It always comes down to a binary vote, yes or no, in or out. No real choice.

EU budgets are bloated by bureaucratic interests and hampered by expensive legacy issues such as the Common Agricultural Policy.

The Commission is hysterically secretive and conducts much of its business behind closed doors that lay it open to corruption and abuse from lobbyists. For example, what do you know about the TTIP negotiations that might destroy the NHS as we know it?

Cameron’s reforms are like similar to two fleas on a dog’s back arguing about who owns the dog - totally irrelevant. There are no reforms!

The only reason that there is a debate is because Cameron feared the rise of UKIP and the little Englander types in his party shifting over the swivel-eyed loon. The real issues have always been papered over and ignored.

For me, the democratic deficit in the European Union is so great that I will be voting no. Not because I want to leave the European Union, but I want to shake up those at the top to actually create a European organisation that is fit-for-purpose. If that means tearing down the EU and starting again, then so be it.


 
#8
Is there any reputable source that explains what ukplc would look like out of the EU ?

Is there to be a vote within each of the countries which make up Britain ?
Do the tax havens of Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey have a vote ?
Does anyone paying UK tax get a vote ?
Do tax exile members of the House of Lords get a vote ?
 
#9
this is a head vs heart type question and could easily turn in to a frustrated with how the country/eu is run ie a protest vote, bit like the US elections, with very serious consequences. Quite a few people want to cut immigration so want a Brexit but I believe I read more non-EU move here than european people, not sure if true?
 
#10
ErikthViking - 10/2/2016 11:32

I am a committed European and also think that all the nations of the earth should co-operate for mutual benefit.

However, the European Union was flawed from the start. It was never designed to be democratic. The only part that we can vote for directly - the Parliament - is marginalised. The real power lies with the Council (representatives from national governments), and, worse, the Commission (totally unelected).

It was constructed by a elite in Europe to suit the post-war political realpolitik and we, the people, had no say in its formation. Likewise, we have had no real chance to affect its development. It always comes down to a binary vote, yes or no, in or out. No real choice.

EU budgets are bloated by bureaucratic interests and hampered by expensive legacy issues such as the Common Agricultural Policy.

The Commission is hysterically secretive and conducts much of its business behind closed doors that lay it open to corruption and abuse from lobbyists. For example, what do you know about the TTIP negotiations that might destroy the NHS as we know it?

Cameron’s reforms are like similar to two fleas on a dog’s back arguing about who owns the dog - totally irrelevant. There are no reforms!

The only reason that there is a debate is because Cameron feared the rise of UKIP and the little Englander types in his party shifting over the swivel-eyed loon. The real issues have always been papered over and ignored.

For me, the democratic deficit in the European Union is so great that I will be voting no. Not because I want to leave the European Union, but I want to shake up those at the top to actually create a European organisation that is fit-for-purpose. If that means tearing down the EU and starting again, then so be it.
Exactly this, The EU must change and I think it needs a member state to withdraw to force this. My vote will be to leave.
 
#11
JIMNNINA - 10/2/2016 11:33

Is there any reputable source that explains what ukplc would look like out of the EU ?

Is there to be a vote within each of the countries which make up Britain ?
Do the tax havens of Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey have a vote ?
Does anyone paying UK tax get a vote ?
Do tax exile members of the House of Lords get a vote ?
No because it's impossible to say for sure, entirely open to post Exit negotiations that would need to take place.

We are Great Britain & N.Ireland and we vote as such. There might be Exit consequences for Great Britain & N.Ireland but that's another issue for another day.

Anyone on the electoral register will get a vote, like any other vote.

No I don't think Lords Peers can vote.

Hope that helps.

Feel free to contribute any actual opinion or thoughts you may have to the debate.
 

GARYafCb

Fans' Favourite
#12
Personally I find the idea of Brexit alarming.
Imagine Osborne's Tories running the country unfettered by the restraints that European law and Human Rights legislation put upon them.
The Calais Jungle moved to Dover.
Break up of the UK (Scotland would be gone and back into the EU fold)
And UKPLC still doing most of their trade with Europe but with no decision making input.

But still, at least we would run our own country - as it fell, kicking and screaming, back into the 18th century.

 
#13
it's impossible to say for sure

Very difficult to make an informed choice then, is there a need for a 5 year referendum II with the chance to re apply for admission to the EU ?
 
#14
JIMNNINA, I think this is the big issue... There isn't anything yet, or possibly at all, that will inform voters of GB, what the pros and cons will be of leaving Europe, or indeed staying...

My main worry is that the vast majority of the population will vote with ill informed and often prejudice views... The main one being immigration... You talk to anyone and they always bring up immigration as the one thing that pees them off and would vote to leave if it isn't sorted...

Whilst this is a very important point, it is not the bee all and end all of being involved in Europe and there are a probably a lot more important things that need to be thought of, and brought to the attention of voters...

The Govt, and other organisations need to educate people fully on what it means to leave or stay, as opposed to allowing people be persuaded by the media... Without this, and the possibility of a vote being as early as this summer, I can only really see one winner, and that is to leave...

For my decision... I want to be educated fully before I make my mind up... What's on the table currently as reform, doesn't really seem enough to me...
 
#15
JIMNNINA - 10/2/2016 12:16

it's impossible to say for sure

Very difficult to make an informed choice then, is there a need for a 5 year referendum II with the chance to re apply for admission to the EU ?
That's why any status quo option in any referendum usually has the head start, such as the Jocks independence, because what the alternative exactly looks like depends on what happens when the alternative is forced into reality.

Doesn't mean it shouldn't be debated or voted upon though. Doesn't mean that the status quo can't be deemed unacceptable, if indeed that's how you feel.
 
#17
GARYafCb - 10/2/2016 12:16

Personally I find the idea of Brexit alarming.
Imagine Osborne's Tories running the country unfettered by the restraints that European law and Human Rights legislation put upon them.
The Calais Jungle moved to Dover.
Break up of the UK (Scotland would be gone and back into the EU fold)
And UKPLC still doing most of their trade with Europe but with no decision making input.

But still, at least we would run our own country - as it fell, kicking and screaming, back into the 18th century.
1. Why would the Tories be running Britain - we still have elections, are you frightened of our electorate?
2. European law and Human Rights legislation. Need some serious changes here anyway.
3. Calais jungle coming over here. Right, how? Scare story.
4. Scotland can do what they want, they are bankrupt with oil prices as they are now and the EU will not accept them into the fold.
5. UKPLC does not do most of its trade with Europe, we are far better off developing trade with emerging countries rather than those mired with bloated bureaucracy and red tape.

As you may have guessed I will be voting OUT.
 
#18
I'm for being in the EU but I really struggle to defend the institutions when things like the Strasbourg parliament exist. An utterly pointless waste. Really, really pointless.

However, should we leave anyone that thinks the EU will take it as a sign to change I think will be surprised. I expect them to become even more bull-headed in an effort to prove the UK wrong.