Non - Brexit

GARYafCb - 10/2/2016 12:16

Imagine Osborne's Tories running the country unfettered by the restraints that European law and Human Rights legislation put upon them.
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The EU has nothing to do with human rights legislation. That is the European Court of Human rights which is not, nor ever has been part of the EU set-up.

Convention for the Protection of Human Rights
and Fundamental Freedoms was proclaimed by the United Nations in 1948 (ten years before the EU - then called the EC) and since 1950 comes under the Council of Europe (again nothing to do with the EU).

 
I can't think of one benefit the European Union provides for me.

The electorate of the UK vote to chose the Government of the day, then some unelected nobody from Europe says you can't do that. Our judges make decisions based on laws made by a democraticly elected Government but some unelected non-legal nobody in Europe says you can't do that.

What a fracking cheek and we shouldn't stand for it.





 
GARYafCb - 10/2/2016 12:16

Personally I find the idea of Brexit alarming.
Imagine Osborne's Tories running the country unfettered by the restraints that European law and Human Rights legislation put upon them.
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Agreed, this would be my biggest fear of leaving the EU.

The Calais Jungle moved to Dover.
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Off the wall, desperate, scaremongering.

Break up of the UK (Scotland would be gone and back into the EU fold)
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Fingers crossed! We could a lot with the money flooding North over the wall.

And UKPLC still doing most of their trade with Europe but with no decision making input.

But still, at least we would run our own country - as it fell, kicking and screaming, back into the 18th century.
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Genuine question. what real decision making input has the UK had in the EU? My understanding is that every benefit to the UK since Thatcher has only been chipped away.
Really at most we can achieve is some wiggle room in apparently autocratic federalist laws, like the "only trade euros in the eurozone" or "websites must pay VAT in every country they trade with".
 
My instincts tell me that in an ever more globalised world we would be mad to leave.

However, David Cameron has handled the whole thing terribly. His re-negotiation is a farce and will have almost no impact. SLJ is right that, rightly or wrongly, people's main concern is immigration from the EU. Restricting benefits will categorically not lead to reduced immigration and I am doubtful that it would even save much money.

Even if it is cutting off our nose to spite our face, I am tempted to vote leave just to expose Cameron as the vacuous, amateur and lightweight leader that he is.
 
...you have to wonder how much the other European leaders are bothered with Cameron posturing and trying to keep his own party from splitting?

...I am pro-EU but do think that the 'model' is flawed at the present and needs some serious re-booting, on the other hand we may be better off making a tactical withdrawal to calm the waters (and at the same time see the back of Cameron)

...I may be wrong but the migrant issue has been caused by the exploitation of many western countries who seek to impose their power and politics and then wash their hands of the blame for de-stabilising other countries and cultures that they no absolutely nothing about...we are reaping what has been sewn over centuries...it is a global concern not just a European one...and it has brought out the very worst in some of our own countrymen who seem to have directed such hatred and ignorance to thousands who are suffering so badly!
 
tednphil - 10/2/2016 10:45
Well this site is mainly read by those of a 'left wing' viewpoint so it will be interesting to see the thoughts here....
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As with many political matters, in or out of the EU is not a left or right wing issue.

 
Norton Cherry - 10/2/2016 12:11
...The EU must change and I think it needs a member state to withdraw to force this. My vote will be to leave.
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This.

Every time I'm in Europe I feel like we're missing out in some way.

But then I see and hear from the federalists and I want us to be as far away from them as we possibly can.


In its current form the EU is a nasty business and only a withdrawal is acceptable right now.



 
SteveJonesLegend - 10/2/2016 12.21

The Govt, and other organisations need to educate people fully on what it means to leave or stay, as opposed to allowing people be persuaded by the media... Without this, and the possibility of a vote being as early as this summer, I can only really see one winner, and that is to leave...
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Do you think they will give you an unbiased view and not use scaremongering tactics?

I made my mind up a long time ago how I will vote.
 
SteveJonesLegend - 10/2/2016 12:21

My main worry is that the vast majority of the population will vote with ill informed and often prejudice views... The main one being immigration... You talk to anyone and they always bring up immigration as the one thing that pees them off and would vote to leave if it isn't sorted...

Whilst this is a very important point, it is not the be all and end all of being involved in Europe and there are a probably a lot more important things that need to be thought of, and brought to the attention of voters...
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Excellent point. For example

How many people understand, let alone have read, the treaties that set-up and govern the EU. If they did they would be astonished and shocked.

Who knows what the Commission really does and the functions of the EU Court in Lxembourg? If they did they, they would wonder why sucjh institutions have such a profound effect on our lives.

Why does the EU not work even on it's most fundamental level. There has supposedly been a single European market since the first of January 1993. So why are we still paying roaming charges for using our phones in other EU countries? Importantly, aow is it that companies like IKEA, Google, Amazon and Starbucks care allowed to shift their profits around between EU countries to avoid tax? After 23 years there still isn't a single market.

So many questions. Almost no answers.



 
kirsikka - 10/2/2016 16:40

Just a hunch btk but I'll guess that you're for more links. :tongue:
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Like this one. :grin:


Harry Haddock, on the Nation of Shopkeepers blog, writes:

In the meantime, to protect you from the horror of anarchist carrots refusing to grow down the straight and narrow EU path, we will continue to sacrifice 20% of all that is grown, and continue to pay a 40% premium for the privilege. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the fact of the matter. The EU is an undemocratic, corrupt, bureaucratic organisation that makes life worse for everyone in the UK.

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2008/nov/12/eu-food-veg-cucumber
 
ErikthViking - 10/2/2016 11:32

The Commission is hysterically secretive and conducts much of its business behind closed doors that lay it open to corruption and abuse from lobbyists. For example, what do you know about the TTIP negotiations that might destroy the NHS as we know it?

Cameron’s reforms are like similar to two fleas on a dog’s back arguing about who owns the dog - totally irrelevant. There are no reforms!

The only reason that there is a debate is because Cameron feared the rise of UKIP and the little Englander types in his party shifting over the swivel-eyed loon. The real issues have always been papered over and ignored.

For me, the democratic deficit in the European Union is so great that I will be voting no. Not because I want to leave the European Union, but I want to shake up those at the top to actually create a European organisation that is fit-for-purpose. If that means tearing down the EU and starting again, then so be it.
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Probably one for the older poster on here.

David Cameron must have been in and out of more doors than Brian Rix in a Whitehall farce. :grin:
 
Most of the UK plc utilities and transport services are owned by eu companies, what is the result of an out vote?

What is the status of eu residents working and paying tax in the uk after an out vote?
What happens to projects being funded partly or completely by the eu after an out vote?
Will all the eu legislation be repealed after an out vote?

Lots of noise but difficult to hear any voices of reason on either side of the debate.
 
The EU is out-dated, its a global economy out there now. However, I do think a trade treaty with Europe would be OK - this is what our parents and grandparents were tricked into thinking they were voting for in the 70's.
The EU is a bureaucratic nightmare and a huge waste of money and if we don't vote to get out of it now our children and grandchildren will be cursing us all in the future.
I would personally rather be a bit worse off than be gradually dominated more and more by the Germans and French etc.
The majority of our MP's love the Europe thing as I believe many of them strive to join the massive gravy train that is a MEP or Commissioner. Most MP's are not in the real world whatever party they are in.

My grandmother who is of very sound mind even though she is 103 says, and I quote - "We beat the Germans in the war and ever since they have been trying to get revenge and take over us through the back door".

We should our own laws not ones that are thought up by people in a posh office in Europe.
We should never join the Euro. What a nightmare that would have been if we had done that along with the other sheep.
Everyone should think very carefully before voting.
The choice is, vote to stay in and the European Parliament will gradually have more and more influence over the UK.
Vote to leave and let the UK start to make ALL its own laws again and make ALL its own decisions, without the influence of out of touch people in the ivory tower that is the European Commission
 
<div><font face="null">Just over 25 years ago I did my law dissertation on the set up and operation of the (then) EEC and its various institutions. My views then are still pretty much my views now...it always reminds me of that old joke about the American tourist driving through rural Ireland and stopping an old boy to ask &quot;what's the best way to get to Dublin&quot;...with the answer &quot;well, I wouldn't start from here&quot;.</font></div><div><p><font face="null">The British people deserved a vote <strong>long</strong> before now as to whether to remain in the EU, and it's unfortunate that so many of the pro/con factors will likely be lost in the current emotion of immigration concerns, whether valid or not.</font></p><p><br /><font face="null" /></p></div><div><br /></div>
 
JIMNNINA - 10/2/2016 17:12

Most of the UK plc utilities and transport services are owned by eu companies, what is the result of an out vote?

What is the status of eu residents working and paying tax in the uk after an out vote?
What happens to projects being funded partly or completely by the eu after an out vote?
Will all the eu legislation be repealed after an out vote?

Lots of noise but difficult to hear any voices of reason on either side of the debate.
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1. Zero impact.
2. Zero impact unless WE decide to expel them, impose visa requirements, or restrict their movement.
3. Don't know but would presume we would have to take over the funding from the money that we currently pay to the EU. (we would almost certainly be net gainers.
4. EU legislation would become non binding on the UK unless it has also been enshrined in UK law. However you can bet our own bureaucrats would love to retain a lot of it!!

 
Any links as to where the companies have stated this ?

Any links to official government policy on the result of an Out vote ?

Any links to the figures on the cost of all the legislation changes compared to the annual net bill for the eu ?

thanks.
 
JIMNNINA - 10/2/2016 18:05

Any links as to where the companies have stated this ?

Any links to official government policy on the result of an Out vote ?

Any links to the figures on the cost of all the legislation changes compared to the annual net bill for the eu ?

thanks.
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No links Jim, but the companies are private entities so no reason to believe the electric will stop or the trains won't run.
Government policy on an out vote - I think we are all waiting to see that. Its my interpretation on how we handle other foreign nationals.
Cost of legislation surely has to be lower if you simply decide not to enforce something regardless of the huge sum we pay to the EU annually.

I did see something today that showed our trade with EU is falling and they are not our biggest export market.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3439693/Britain-s-trade-EU-slumps-Major-boost-Leave-campaign-exports-outside-Europe-continue-soar.html
 
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