Non: Historical Statues

Toronto John said:
I would agree with that comment. But for many indigenous people, the opportunities of the "great American dream", 5000 sf house, three cars in the driveway, and superfast internet are not the yardstick by which they would measure success. Even among those who reach higher education, many do not aspire to corporate Canada and a corner office; the stated objective for many are pathways to betterment of the lives of their people, through degrees in law, education and health care. Entrepreneurial pursuits are valued, as are degrees in the arts which can promote their culture. They are recognized in the Canadian Charter as distinct groups.

Those are the opportunities and benefits that they want, which in turn could result in a healthier lifestyle for future generations. But there has been a huge disconnect between the need and the funding required. The latest budgets do try to address some of this.
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Fair and balanced and touches on the point why posts like this are so ridiculous...


Dorsetpeeler said:
It’s very evident the British colonists committed terrible deeds and no one really argues that. Surely those who are so offended now and hate everything it stands for won’t want to profit from it? I expect they will all to stop using running water, sanitation,education, farming and give up all their electrical devices and social media to return to their Teepees and wear grass skirts.
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A complete inability to comprehend that not all cultures aspire to the trappings of Western culture.

It would be funny if someone forcibly moved into Dorsetpeelers house, completely refurbished it to awful standards that he hated and then just told him it was better.
 
I recently visited Little Big Horn, Mount Rushmore and Crazy Horse in South Dakota.

The different sides of the story are stark.

The federal story talks of heroics and great victory, even in defeat and the gain of land and riches.

The indigenous story talks of suffering, death, poverty and loss of spiritual land.

As I said earlier, this will only be forgotten when those whose ancestors were deposed and disposed of, forget what happened. Until that time the colonialists, and their current leaders, must still take responsibility for what happened and the actions their forefathers took.

This is not an individual thing, as they acted as ambassadors for their country.

In my opinion, in the meantime, the countries and states (and there were many, not just British) who carried these acts of invasion must still bear the responsibility of those actions and live with it.
 
Audenshaw Cherry said:
I recently visited Little Big Horn, Mount Rushmore and Crazy Horse in South Dakota.

The different sides of the story are stark.

The federal story talks of heroics and great victory, even in defeat and the gain of land and riches.

The indigenous story talks of suffering, death, poverty and loss of spiritual land.

As I said earlier, this will only be forgotten when those whose ancestors were deposed and disposed of, forget what happened. Until that time the colonialists, and their current leaders, must still take responsibility for what happened and the actions their forefathers took.

This is not an individual thing, as they acted as ambassadors for their country.

In my opinion, in the meantime, the countries and states (and there were many, not just British) who carried these acts of invasion must still bear the responsibility of those actions and live with it.
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If you look at the histories of most "civilisations," you can find massacres and genocides and most countries try to cover them up, distort the truth or try to excuse away examples of inhumane actions.

Britain and, later Australia, for example, explained away the treatment of the Aborigines, by even creating their own, false, legal premise by unilaterally declaring terra nullius. Ask Aborigines and Maoris what they think of being "discovered" by Captain Cook?*

For the US, look at the Indian Removal Act of 1830 under president Andrew Jackson. That legalised just about any action against Native Americans and caused what has become known as the Trail of Tears. It's not a statue, but Jackson's portrait still adorns the $20 bill. Trump tried to kill the process of Jackson being replaced by Harriet Tubman the bank note. Biden will likely speed up the process.

*Great sailor though we was, Cook was not the first European to visit what is now Australia and new Zealand and not even the first Briton - that was William Dampier in 1688 (incidentally, a Somerset lad, he learnt his trade in Weymouth).

The Stranglers, maybe, got it right: No More Heroes.
https://bournemouth-forum.vitalfoot...-ending-jukebox-track-three.11382/post-523812
 
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SlowDownDerek said:
All over the place this. If she's a figurehead then it has got something to do with her hasn't it. You can't have it both ways.
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But Canada is a self-governing country and has been for over 150 years. If Queen Elizabeth II is responsible for murder and ill-treatment because she is a descendant of the then-figurehead, then how much more are the destructors responsible because it was their actual ancestors who were doing it?

This is much like the Rhodes issue at Oxford. The protestors are wanting to make as much noise and protest as they can, as long as it doesn't cost them anything. If they want to protest about QE2 in a way that we would know would really mean something, why not convert their assets into cash and burn them because of the picture of the Queen on the notes? That would really show they mean business - that they were not just a rent-a-mob let's have a protest party group.
 
dsr-burnley said:
But Canada is a self-governing country and has been for over 150 years. If Queen Elizabeth II is responsible for murder and ill-treatment because she is a descendant of the then-figurehead, then how much more are the destructors responsible because it was their actual ancestors who were doing it?

This is much like the Rhodes issue at Oxford. The protestors are wanting to make as much noise and protest as they can, as long as it doesn't cost them anything. If they want to protest about QE2 in a way that we would know would really mean something, why not convert their assets into cash and burn them because of the picture of the Queen on the notes? That would really show they mean business - that they were not just a rent-a-mob let's have a protest party group.
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I don't know how many times I can say it, she's their current head of state. Literally the chief public representative of the country and the most appropriate person to direct such disapproval.

Don't get me wrong I am a republican and therefore would strip her of her titles tomorrow if I had the chance. She would then be just another old lady largely free from reproach. It's you monarchists (I'm assuming you're pro royal family, you might not be) who insist that she is the figurehead of our country and theirs and therefore its down to you that she's being held responsible for the crimes committed under her name.
 
Its a complicated issue.. complicated History...how far back do we go with the Statue thing...and Art.. Artefacts.. Phoenicians ... Celts.. Picts.. Romans....Vikings...Normans etc. They all, or virtually all, pillaged and plundered land from peasants and grabbed Power ! And plenty of Rape too!

There are some strange, bitter and twisted people on this Forum.. some entirely, for want of a better word 'thick'...who are intent on putting anyone down if they have the slightest, micro - difference of opinion on their rigid views!
 
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Just about every nation has been invaded and conquered at some point and to the victor go the spoils and the telling of history. Still happens now and will in the future as the stronger take what they want rightly or wrongly. China and Russia are leading the way though that doesn’t seem to get attention it deserves. I’m sure the ancestors of those impacted appreciate the fake moral outrage and sympathy from a few Brits sat in Dorset.
 
Old Cherry said:
Its a complicated issue.. complicated History...how far back do we go with the Statue thing...and Art.. Artefacts.. Phoenicians ... Celts.. Picts.. Romans....Vikings...Normans etc. They all, or virtually all, pillaged and plundered land from peasants and grabbed Power ! And plenty of Rape too!

There are some strange, bitter and twisted people on this Forum.. some entirely, for want of a better word 'thick'...who are intent on putting anyone down if they have the slightest, micro - difference of opinion on their rigid views!
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I guess you have to go back to Adam and Eve
 
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Dorsetpeeler said:
Just about every nation has been invaded and conquered at some point and to the victor go the spoils and the telling of history. Still happens now and will in the future as the stronger take what they want rightly or wrongly. China and Russia are leading the way though that doesn’t seem to get attention it deserves. I’m sure the ancestors of those impacted appreciate the fake moral outrage and sympathy from a few Brits sat in Dorset.
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And no doubt you'll say that the Uyghurs should be grateful to China.
 
Dorsetpeeler said:
Just about every nation has been invaded and conquered at some point and to the victor go the spoils and the telling of history. Still happens now and will in the future as the stronger take what they want rightly or wrongly. China and Russia are leading the way though that doesn’t seem to get attention it deserves. I’m sure the ancestors of those impacted appreciate the fake moral outrage and sympathy from a few Brits sat in Dorset.
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Not moral outrage here, just pointing out how laughable it is that when all of the royalist snowflakes on here get upset when people dare to criticise their figurehead.
 
Rodmorg said:
Nothing to do with her whatsoever. The Queen played no role in these massacres.
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I think you'll find that most heads of state don't play a role in the atrocities but represent the country that does. How many are you prepared to absolve throughout history.
 
So what do we do then...Shoot the Queen and all her clan..as they did with the Romanov Royals in 1917....install someone like Putin..and have all the trappings of relative luxury reduced to a basic black bread and cheap car economy... Oh but the leader will still be in a Palace....like Ceausescu had in Romania...with an evil poverty across the land that you wouldn't believe could exist...!
 
HM The Queen is purely a figurehead, she has had no control over whatever 'atrocities' our various governments have been blamed for over the years. I expect she would make it known to the PM if she disapproved of what was going on, but couldn't change anything. Many years ago the monarch did have powers but not in recent history.
 
Old Cherry said:
So what do we do then...Shoot the Queen and all her clan..as they did with the Romanov Royals in 1917....install someone like Putin..and have all the trappings of relative luxury reduced to a basic black bread and cheap car economy... Oh but the leader will still be in a Palace....like Ceausescu had in Romania...with an evil poverty across the land that you wouldn't believe could exist...!
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Shooting the blighters is too good for them. Bring back the guillotine.
 
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