Non - Pandemic

Wonder how many decent Tory MPs will vote against these draconian measures today? Sadly, likely not quite enough to beat the Govt because of the cowards at Labour, who have decided to do nothing at all. But just imagine, if the decent MPs could get to three figures prepared to stand up for the many millions adversely affected by these unjustifiable rules, it could at least start to bring Vallance and Whitty and Hancock to at last back up their rules with some actual evidence.
 
davygravy said:
Wonder how many decent Tory MPs will vote against these draconian measures today? Sadly, likely not quite enough to beat the Govt because of the cowards at Labour, who have decided to do nothing at all. But just imagine, if the decent MPs could get to three figures prepared to stand up for the many millions adversely affected by these unjustifiable rules, it could at least start to bring Vallance and Whitty and Hancock to at last back up their rules with some actual evidence.
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Are you still arguing that lockdown don't work despite the facts in the past few weeks showing categorically that they do?

You only have to look at the figures in England and compare them with Wales.
 
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SlowDownDerek said:
Are you still arguing that lockdown don't work despite the facts in the past few weeks showing categorically that they do?

You only have to look at the figures in England and compare them with Wales.
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I don't think anyone argues that lockdown doesn't reduce infection rates. Of course it does, if you welded everyones front door shut for a month and delivered food parcels the virus would be practically eradicated. At least until it is brought in from abroad again.
Its a question (for me anyway) of whether the benefits of lockdown (or whatever Tier) are justified when balanced against other social, medical and economic impacts. I accept there is no perfect solution, for me the current Tier system goes too far but I accept that others think it doesn't go far enough.
Call me Mr cynical but I have a nasty feeling that governments can all too easily get used to using the on/off switch on peoples freedoms !!!!
 
redharry said:
I don't think anyone argues that lockdown doesn't reduce infection rates. Of course it does, if you welded everyones front door shut for a month and delivered food parcels the virus would be practically eradicated. At least until it is brought in from abroad again.
Its a question (for me anyway) of whether the benefits of lockdown (or whatever Tier) are justified when balanced against other social, medical and economic impacts. I accept there is no perfect solution, for me the current Tier system goes too far but I accept that others think it doesn't go far enough.
Call me Mr cynical but I have a nasty feeling that governments can all too easily get used to using the on/off switch on peoples freedoms !!!!
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I do share your concerns about where this leaves us once this all dies down. It won't happen overnight and I think the government will be reluctant to give back freedoms as soon as they might. There is also the issue of using people's fears to keep or bring back these types of controls at the drop of a hat in future. There are always crises around every corner.

That said I still fall on the side if the fence that despite my dislike of this government I can't see any logical reason for them to put these restrictions in place if they didn't think them necessary. If the NHS did get overwhelmed then I really would be concerned how the public would react.
 
DJ said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1333484975161831427

Where are the medical staff coming from for this plan that isn’t directly a requirement thankfully?

Or are we saying let’s have more hospitalised covid patients to make them necessary and then there’s less of a demand on local hospitals?

All so that some hospitality folk are happier?
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No DJ, the point I said could be up for debate is whether to put COVID patients only in a particular facility to avoid cross infection. You would obviously then staff that unit accordingly and staff the other hospital accordingly. It's no different to dividing dedicated resource in a single hospital. If I recall it was envisaged that armed forces medical staff would be utilised if we got to the stage of making substantial use of the Nightingales, so there is some trained slack there.
It has nothing to do with the wishes of the hospitality sector.
 
redharry said:
No DJ, the point I said could be up for debate is whether to put COVID patients only in a particular facility to avoid cross infection. You would obviously then staff that unit accordingly and staff the other hospital accordingly. It's no different to dividing dedicated resource in a single hospital. If I recall it was envisaged that armed forces medical staff would be utilised if we got to the stage of making substantial use of the Nightingales, so there is some trained slack there.
It has nothing to do with the wishes of the hospitality sector.
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We were discussing our MP’s or more in general the difference between tier 1 and 2, which are no household mixing indoors and that pubs have to operate as restaurants. That’s it. So quite clearly, the argument all boils down to hospitality as is blindingly obvious watching the bickering Tories in the commons.
So all for the sake of opening “wet pubs” we’re happy to have more infections, which won’t overwhelm the local hospitals because we’re using the nightingale’s...
As for nightingales. I’ll defer to someone who apparently knows far more about this subject, who posted in response to dear old Tobias.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1333495350695497734
 
DJ said:
We were discussing our MP’s or more in general the difference between tier 1 and 2, which are no household mixing indoors and that pubs have to operate as restaurants. That’s it. So quite clearly, the argument all boils down to hospitality as is blindingly obvious watching the bickering Tories in the commons.
So all for the sake of opening “wet pubs” we’re happy to have more infections, which won’t overwhelm the local hospitals because we’re using the nightingale’s...
As for nightingales. I’ll defer to someone who apparently knows far more about this subject, who posted in response to dear old Tobias.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1333495350695497734
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To the NHS' credit they've had intubation training courses running since March to train non ICU specialised staff such as ward nurses, anesthetists, surgeons etc in how to do this sort of stuff. I guess so that they could assist with Covid whilst their usual functions in the NHS was wound down. I think our own DRD is a doc of some sort so he'll no doubt know a lot more about how useful that would have been. But the idea behind it presumably being to much increase the 'pool' Simon mentions.
 
If everyone is locked in at home and the main risk of catching and passing on cover is in the household is this herd immunity by the back door?
 
If track and trace was working as it should would it make a difference or is it time to bin it and put the resources into rolling out vaccines?
 
davygravy said:
Wonder how many decent Tory MPs will vote against these draconian measures today? Sadly, likely not quite enough to beat the Govt because of the cowards at Labour, who have decided to do nothing at all. But just imagine, if the decent MPs could get to three figures prepared to stand up for the many millions adversely affected by these unjustifiable rules, it could at least start to bring Vallance and Whitty and Hancock to at last back up their rules with some actual evidence.
Click to expand...
Do the 'draconian' measures protect people like those you care for
 
DJ said:
We were discussing our MP’s or more in general the difference between tier 1 and 2, which are no household mixing indoors and that pubs have to operate as restaurants. That’s it. So quite clearly, the argument all boils down to hospitality as is blindingly obvious watching the bickering Tories in the commons.
So all for the sake of opening “wet pubs” we’re happy to have more infections, which won’t overwhelm the local hospitals because we’re using the nightingale’s...
As for nightingales. I’ll defer to someone who apparently knows far more about this subject, who posted in response to dear old Tobias.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1333495350695497734
Click to expand...
Actually you introduced Ellwood and his comments about Nightingales and I responded with a view that perhaps they could be used as isolation type units and staffed perhaps by Forces medical personnel. Nothing to do with hospitality, and as you say its not just pubs its also people from mixed households mixing indoors.
 
RobTrent said:
Do the 'draconian' measures protect people like those you care for
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I'm not saying we don't need any protections Rob. Just the right ones for the right people in the right circumstances. Way too many now being adversely affected by these current rules and it doesn't need to be like that.
 
davygravy said:
I'm not saying we don't need any protections Rob. Just the right ones for the right people in the right circumstances. Way too many now being adversely affected by these current rules and it doesn't need to be like that.
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Well, you'll have seen how the 'wrong people' can affect the 'right people' if the virus is left to spread.

You and red harry seem to bang on about freedom, but I bet if I started mentioning Human Rights you'd start calling me a Marxist. ;-)
 
RobTrent said:
Well, you'll have seen how the 'wrong people' can affect the 'right people' if the virus is left to spread.

You and red harry seem to bang on about freedom, but I bet if I started mentioning Human Rights you'd start calling me a Marxist. ;-)
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All Human Rights are equal but some human rights are more equal than others.
 
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