Our injuries...

Neil Dawson

Fans' Favourite
#21
Seems everyone is looking for sinister reasons to every issue the club has. Keeper has a poor game then neil moss gets it, team loses its Eddie's tactics, injuries then we overtrain! Unfortunately **** happens, I think in our championship winning season we had very few injuries, since weve had our fair share of ACLs not sure you can do anything about that.
Steve cook was a freak accident, Adam smith clobbered in a game, it's a physical sport!
But hey let's blame the clubs methods
Not blaming... as SDD points out nobody knows... just questioning.

Yes there are freak injuries... but these probably take us to the realms of other teams injury numbers. We seem to have way more than our fair share of hamstring, ligament and other muscle injuries which can be directly linked to over straining leading to weakness. It can also be pure coincidence of course. So you tend to look at it over a significant opinion which is why people are raising the question. It was raised last week and then on Friday we lost two more players to training injuries.

We also have a history of players who don’t make it back as expected, re-operations and breakdowns when back in training. It does mean people will question it.

The club said they investigated it last season and all I would hope is they brought in an independent body rather than sit the same folk down and ask them to police themselves.

There is no doubt our record in numbers and recovery is poor. Whether it is internally effected or not is up for debate but you can’t blame people for asking the question every year.
 

Neil Dawson

Fans' Favourite
#22
Mr Picky replies:

I wondered about that when the commentator said it on Saturday....we have got Lerma, Ramsdale, King, Fraser and Lewis Cook playing. Would they not all be in a first XI?

I'm not saying the injury crisis isn't appalling, we are down to the bare bones, but I think we can at least muster a 5-a-side team.....
I was carrying on the broom gag. I wasn’t being serious.
 
#23
Derek: “your mate hasn't really got a clue”. On the contrary, he has, having spent years as a leading figure in sports medicine - that’s why I quote him. It’s reasonable to reference an expert in the field: this is not a gripe about the club, it’s a observation about a serious problem that’s affecting our season - again.
 
#24
Derek: “your mate hasn't really got a clue”. On the contrary, he has, having spent years as a leading figure in sports medicine - that’s why I quote him. It’s reasonable to reference an expert in the field: this is not a gripe about the club, it’s a observation about a serious problem that’s affecting our season - again.
You said "he's puzzled" and "his best guess" meaning he's on the outside looking in and so doesn't know what's going on. Would he go on record with these claims with his professional reputation on the line? Of course he wouldn't unless he detailed knowledge of what he was talking about. I'm sure he's fully competent in his field but he's not working with the club and as good as admits it's pure speculation based on what you've said.

As I say, ask him if he thinks there is any possibility whatsoever that the club don't employ experts in this area.
 
#25
I think we should look on the bright side of our injury crisis, imagine if King, Gosling, Surman, Francis and L Cook were still injured.
They are slowly coming back. We have a good squad of players and I am happy to see all of them playing. Our win vs Chelsea shows the spirit of the squad.
 
#26
You said "he's puzzled" and "his best guess" meaning he's on the outside looking in and so doesn't know what's going on ... he's not working with the club and as good as admits it's pure speculation.
Strange comment - none of us know the detail of tactical conversations with the squad, negotiations over pay and contracts, debates on the Board ... that doesn’t stop us commenting on them. Footy fans speculate all the time - it’s part of our makeup. Be a bit more accommodating!
 
#27
Strange comment - none of us know the detail of tactical conversations with the squad, negotiations over pay and contracts, debates on the Board ... that doesn’t stop us commenting on them. Footy fans speculate all the time - it’s part of our makeup. Be a bit more accommodating!
I'm not suggesting that you don't have a right to question what's going on and your friend's input is certainly an interesting angle. You suggested it was expert opinion though and I'm well within my rights to question that. It's not expert opinion if he doesn't have a detailed knowledge of what he's talking about, i.e. what they do in training, etc.

I am also suggesting is that it's inconceivable that the club don't consider these things. Of course they do.
 
#28
if you look on the injury table site most clubs have a fair share of muscle injuries so were not alone most go unnoticed to us as depth of squad covers and the fact we dont look closely at other clubs
 
#29
In the 2018-19 season there were 8 clubs with more injuries than ours.

They include both Manchester clubs, Spurs and Arsenal and this seasons top team Liverpool.

Wonder what they were doing wrong.

https://www.90min.com/posts/6389205...-each-club-suffered-during-the-2018-19-season
Two of the teams with more injuries were relegated and the rest, bar Newcastle, were top 6 clubs with much better quality squads. AFCB and NUFC both did well considering the amount of injuries both teams had to first 11 players.
 
#30
It seems to me that the increased incidence of knee and ankle ligament injuries might be related to new methods of laying pitches. In the past most pitches were soft, muddy and slippery for most of the season. If a player was involved in a tackle or collision that resulted in his body twisting his feet would turn in the mud and not much strain would be placed on the joints. On the new types of reinforced and well drained pitches in the same situations the players boot is more likely to grip the turf and any twisting that results is taken up in the knees and ankles. Aren't our training pitches the same construction as the main pitch? It was very noticeable after a recent game (Man Utd?) when it had rained almost non stop for the whole match that the pitch after the final whistle looked almost as if it hadn't been played on at all. There were virtually no divots to be seen - and divots are caused when players boots rip the turf. Does anyone know if there has been any research into this at all?
Also what sort of studs do the boots have now? Recently they all had blades which would also have prevented the boot from turning on the turf.
One of our North American posters mentioned recently that these type of injuries are not so prevalent in sports such as baseball and ice hockey. If the ligament injuries are caused by too much grip on the pitch, then one would expect to see very few injuries of this type in ice hockey.
There was an interesting article in the Liverpool programme about the club doctor Craig Roberts who was the team physician for the Springboks rugby team for seven years before joining us. He made some interesting comments there about both the similarities and differences between rugby and football and how it is easier to play rugby whilst carrying an injury than it is to play football.
The Club seem to have recruited very well in this department so it doesn't seem like the medical staff are to blame for our current crop of injuries.
 

Garbo

UTC Legend
#32
...not sure why we are debating things that are out of our understanding, all we are doing is speculating and taking an uneducated guess at events. We don’t have access to training,medical records or any injury patterns or history which would be confidential to the players and medical teams.

I am sure that we all have opinions etc as to why or how....but we are making a huge meal out of something we can’t control.....the only certain thing is that in ALL sport athletes and sportsmen and women get injured pushing themselves to their optimum potential during their careers.

The simple fact is that we should have a full squad of players to cover a season that is able to cope with whatever throws itself at us.....otherwise we can debate our recruitment or management of players!
 

Neil Dawson

Fans' Favourite
#33
I am also suggesting is that it's inconceivable that the club don't consider these things. Of course they do.
Playing devils advocate isn’t this another logical opinion with no proof you are using to close down someone else’s logical opinion with no proof.

You are right, people don’t know what goes on in training but there is real evidence over a number of years that there may be a problem. I also agree that it’s pretty inconceivable that the club hasn’t done an inquest but you don’t know that for certain nor do you know if it was internal or a proper roots and branch external audit with a specialist.

None of us know anything apart from when we have the odd bit of insider info and even then nobody believes that!
 
#34
Playing devils advocate isn’t this another logical opinion with no proof you are using to close down someone else’s logical opinion with no proof.

You are right, people don’t know what goes on in training but there is real evidence over a number of years that there may be a problem. I also agree that it’s pretty inconceivable that the club hasn’t done an inquest but you don’t know that for certain nor do you know if it was internal or a proper roots and branch external audit with a specialist.

None of us know anything apart from when we have the odd bit of insider info and even then nobody believes that!
I've always said none of us have any clue what goes on behind the scenes and so pointless speculation is not worth a jot.

I've no proof, I don't need proof because I'm not really trying to prove anything. Logically it is inconceivable that a sports company that is reliant on the performance of its athletes to maintain its income of hundreds of millions of pounds wouldn't invest a good deal of money in this area.

I've no idea what goes on at the club - but in response to the idea that this is not something they have thought about my opinion is that I'd be amazed if that we're true.
 

Grumpy G

Fans' Favourite
#35
I blame VAR.

My spies tell me it’s been introduced into training sessions to fully replicate the big match experience.

Trouble is the clubs still using the same old dial up link Young Tom did back in the day to play Championship Manager.

All the hanging around means the players muscles get cold, and voila all the injuries happen when play starts up again.
 

Neil Dawson

Fans' Favourite
#36
I've always said none of us have any clue what goes on behind the scenes and so pointless speculation is not worth a jot.

I've no proof, I don't need proof because I'm not really trying to prove anything. Logically it is inconceivable that a sports company that is reliant on the performance of its athletes to maintain its income of hundreds of millions of pounds wouldn't invest a good deal of money in this area.

I've no idea what goes on at the club - but in response to the idea that this is not something they have thought about my opinion is that I'd be amazed if that we're true.
I agree. I also think though we would be surprised, not just at this club but at many clubs how things you think might be ultra professional aren’t.

I know a performance director of an Olympic team as we have done some work together. He knows nothing about Bmth btw. What he has told me though from having worked at some other football clubs on a consultancy basis is it is staggering how football employs football people to make decisions that would never be allowed in athletics/rowing etc where the care of athletes is not only superior but made by performance directors who often haven’t competed in that sport. He thinks that football is miles behind as a result with many unnecessary injuries. His biggest bug bear being the obligation to get training when teams are short or to play through an injury to support a cause. Again... that’s nothing to do with our club as he is Northern based but I doubt we differ too much.
 
#37
Interesting, but why is it better to have performance directors who haven't competed in that particular sport ? I would have thought it preferable to have a performance director who has first hand knowledge of the game, no ?
 
#38
I agree. I also think though we would be surprised, not just at this club but at many clubs how things you think might be ultra professional aren’t.

I know a performance director of an Olympic team as we have done some work together. He knows nothing about Bmth btw. What he has told me though from having worked at some other football clubs on a consultancy basis is it is staggering how football employs football people to make decisions that would never be allowed in athletics/rowing etc where the care of athletes is not only superior but made by performance directors who often haven’t competed in that sport. He thinks that football is miles behind as a result with many unnecessary injuries. His biggest bug bear being the obligation to get training when teams are short or to play through an injury to support a cause. Again... that’s nothing to do with our club as he is Northern based but I doubt we differ too much.
Has this guy worked in the Premier League? I think we all know that these things happen in the lower leagues.

That said there's obviously a history of playing through injury at the highest level. Whilst that may be "miles behind" those other sports I would suggest that there are different factors in play. In football you can't pull out of a game, as a club, so there will inevitably be occasions where players are asked to play when not 100% fit.

Arguably "that's football" though and it shouldn't affect us more than average. Even if there was something in the argument that our drills are intensive and more likely to cause injury it would still be part if the trade off. Ultimately Howe has to weigh these things up and decide if injury risk is a price worth paying for having them conditioned in the way he wants.

From a fans perspective its easier to stomach the injuries after you've watched performances like against Chelsea compared to against Norwich that's for sure.
 

Neil Dawson

Fans' Favourite
#39
Interesting, but why is it better to have performance directors who haven't competed in that particular sport ? I would have thought it preferable to have a performance director who has first hand knowledge of the game, no ?
I can’t recall the whole conversation so this is broad . His view was that football managers are not experts in sports science, although some will have more knowledge than others (Sean O’Driscoll was a qualified physio. - my example not his)

They make decisions on footballing matters as footballing people and those are sometimes about necessity of results or based on their view of how fit a squad needs to be. I’ve heard Klopp talk about how he toned down expectations. His gegenpress was renowned for breaking players a few years ago.

Performance Directors have more expertise in sports science. Anyway I’m not suggesting changing anything or saying we are any different so don’t want to spark off a debate it’s just interesting.
 
#40
Found an article from our first season in the PL.

Further down the article are experts giving their views on what the problems might be.


Nine and counting. That is the tally for serious anterior cruciate ligament problems in the Premier League this season after Chelsea’s Kurt Zouma joined the growing squad of players whose season has been wrecked by the most unwanted injury in football.


The list currently reads: Callum Wilson, Tyrone Mings, Max Gradel, Tim Krul, Joe Gomez, Danny Ings, Carl Jenkinson, Jordan Amavi and Zouma.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...injury-season-ACL-players-falling-victim.html