That PL cup record

kirsikka

kirsikka

UTC Legend
Upsets between teams in the same division happen in football, that's one of the things that makes it so interesting. More rarely but still common enough to be acceptable, giant killings happen. For the purposes of this that's any team getting knocked out by a team from a lower division. Again that's football, especially cup football, but they should be far more few and far between for each individual club.

Since we got promoted to the PL, our cup record now includes these results:

2019/20 - Burton 2-0 - Out to a League One side in League Cup
2017/18 - Wigan 3-0 AFCB - Out to a League One side in FA Cup
2016/17 - Millwall 3-0 AFCB - Out to a Championship side in FA Cup
2016/17 - AFCB 2-3 Preston - Out to a Championship side in League Cup

That's four so called giant killings in almost as many years. This isn't news to anyone but for those pointing the fingers at the players, who rightly should be ashamed of themselves, I think this consistent record of underachievement against allegedly inferior opposition has to the be blamed squarely on the management.

When a team screws up once or twice you blame the players on the pitch. When they screw up consistently then you blame the management who picked them and prepared them.

EH is a sacred cow that nobody is looking to sacrifice, far from it, but that doesn't mean he should be immune from criticism. The performances in the cup have often been utterly shocking, even in some of the games when we weren't knocked out. I understand the theory of disjointed sides not playing well together except some of our opponents have also made large scale changes. Who prepared them on the training ground though?

I don't doubt for a minute it won't change and come January we'll do the same thing again for the FA Cup. It's the biggest letdown and disappointment of AFCB's PL era for me. All those years I dreamt of a cup run, never really thinking PL was a realistic target, and now we have a team that should be capable of it and we're throwing it away every season.

Before anyone says it, I understand the desire the prioritise the PL. I can even accept it if we put out a team that makes a fist of the cup games. However, when the same capitulation keeps happening then there must be some kind of alternative middle ground.
 
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kirsikka said:
Upsets between teams in the same division happen in football, that's one of the things that makes it so interesting. More rarely but still common enough to be acceptable, giant killings happen. For the purposes of this that's any team getting knocked out by a team from a lower division. Again that's football, especially cup football, but they should be far more few and far between for each individual club.

Since we got promoted to the PL, our cup record now includes these results:

2018/19 - Burton 2-0 - Out to a League One side in League Cup
2017/18 - Wigan 3-0 AFCB - Out to a League One side in FA Cup
2016/17 - Millwall 3-0 AFCB - Out to a Championship side in FA Cup
2016/17 - AFCB 2-3 Preston - Out to a Championship side in League Cup

That's four so called giant killings in almost as many years. This isn't news to anyone but for those pointing the fingers at the players, who rightly should be ashamed of themselves, I think this consistent record of underachievement against allegedly inferior opposition has to the be blamed squarely on the management.

When a team screws up once or twice you blame the players on the pitch. When they screw up consistently then you blame the management who picked them and prepared them.

EH is a sacred cow that nobody is looking to sacrifice, far from it, but that doesn't mean he should be immune from criticism. The performances in the cup have often been utterly shocking, even in some of the games when we weren't knocked out. I understand the theory of disjointed sides not playing well together except some of our opponents have also made large scale changes. Who prepared them on the training ground though?

I don't doubt for a minute it won't change and come January we'll do the same thing again for the FA Cup. It's the biggest letdown and disappointment of AFCB's PL era for me. All those years I dreamt of a cup run, never really thinking PL was a realistic target, and now we have a team that should be capable of it and we're throwing it away every season.

Before anyone says it, I understand the desire the prioritise the PL. I can even accept it if we put out a team that makes a fist of the cup games. However, when the same capitulation keeps happening then there must be some kind of alternative middle ground.
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sorry to be pedantic but this in 2019/20 season
 
The definition may have changed, but strictly speaking isn't a giant killing when there is a division between them? E.g. it would have to be a League 1 side beat us to make it a Giant Killing? It still leaves 2 in the last 2 years.
 
Fixed. The point still stands though that giant killings shouldn't be an almost annual occurence and if they are that's more the fault of the management than the players.
 
Whatever terminology you use. We should not be losing so easily to lower league opposition. How fortunate we were that Forest Green were so crap at penalties.
 
To me it’s failing to understand the difference between considerable changes and wholesale changes that is baffling.

Eddie will keep saying ‘that team was good enough to win that match’ of course they are on paper but just as if you picked the worlds best eleven and gave them a game v Liverpool they would lose it’s not fair on them.

It’s like he can’t see that but we all know he is an incredibly intelligent football man so he must be able to?

Some of the passes behind opponents or to places they should have run but didn’t is all about understanding.

I thought when Eddie spoke about winning trophies this season he was going to take a slightly different approach and blend four or five first team players into the team to help them when they get a call up but to avoid these rickets.

I fail to understand why other squads can play three times in a week in Europe and cups and we can’t.
 
Neil Dawson said:
To me it’s failing to understand the difference between considerable changes and wholesale changes that is baffling.

Eddie will keep saying ‘that team was good enough to win that match’ of course they are on paper but just as if you picked the worlds best eleven and gave them a game v Liverpool they would lose it’s not fair on them.

It’s like he can’t see that but we all know he is an incredibly intelligent football man so he must be able to?

Some of the passes behind opponents or to places they should have run but didn’t is all about understanding.

I thought when Eddie spoke about winning trophies this season he was going to take a slightly different approach and blend four or five first team players into the team to help them when they get a call up but to avoid these rickets.

I fail to understand why other squads can play three times in a week in Europe and cups and we can’t.
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Perhaps Eddie was being over cautious bearing in mind two days rest before Saturday, a game he will be looking to win. Someone mentioned it last night and like you I suggested players should be able to cope with three games in a week or so.

Playing devils advocate but if he'd put out the spine of the first team last night and West Ham tear us a new one we'd have people criticising last nights selection.

Obviously the buck stops with Eddie but I don't think he'll be too concerned with exiting this competition, probably more riled with some Individual performances.
 
Eddie’s stated ambition is to prioritise the league over cup. Made sense in early seasons but really wanted him to give it a go this season.

Having said that in all our years up to 2014, we have had one quarter final (back in 50s). He has delivered 3 quarter final league cup placements where we have lost in a busy league month to Liverpool, Chelsea and Chelsea. That is impressive.

Fa cup is a disaster in contrast. But after 6-8 games in December Eddie rests players.

Having travelled yesterday I was really hacked off with the display. Individual players are better than that but clearly a lack of intensity. That may come from Eddie as players know it’s not seen as important as the league. Having said that both Fraser and h Wilson missed two great chances when clean through. That isn’t eddie’s fault!

Southampton was a huge win and it was clear that a number of players were on the floor by the final whistle. Not sure it would have been wise to pick them yesterday given we have West Ham on Saturday both from fitness point of view and preparing the side for the game.
 
red_house said:
Perhaps Eddie was being over cautious bearing in mind two days rest before Saturday, a game he will be looking to win. Someone mentioned it last night and like you I suggested players should be able to cope with three games in a week or so.

Playing devils advocate but if he'd put out the spine of the first team last night and West Ham tear us a new one we'd have people criticising last nights selection.

Obviously the buck stops with Eddie but I don't think he'll be too concerned with exiting this competition, probably more riled with some Individual performances.
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I think he will be bothered because I think he likes to get our fringe players playing competitively as part of them being ready and normally we stay in this competition until the FA Cup starts. It’s the FA cup we normally totally f*** up.

He may have been criticised had he played the first team spine... I don’t know. Normally teams get the job done then withdraw the Akes of the world on 65 mins so they don’t hit that stage of real muscle tiredness. I would imagine some of them train harder than they played last night.

There are many valid reasons for not playing the first team, i just think we should have a different approach now and try for a trophy as surely we are not worried about relegation?
 
For me you have to consider that we are still building. We are just about getting there with an established team and formation in the league which can counter attack effectively and stem the flow of goals the other way. As many have said, this has to be priority #1.

Adding to the depth of the squad and getting our reserves/ cup side to play a good standard of competitive football together is work in progress. Most of the players last night were either fringe (lacking competitive minutes), out of form or recently joined. Ability aside, it always takes time to get that understanding between a particular group of players. I’ve played in strong teams where it only takes 1 or 2 players to be out to disrupt the balance. Other good players then get frustrated, try and ‘force’ things and the usual calmness and fluid passing goes out the window as they inexplicably run into trouble every time they get the ball.

I also think that it’s the case of getting our tactics right to suit the XI on the pitch, something which is unfortunately a legacy problem of our first team, so it shouldn’t be hugely surprising that we set up wrong last night.

On top of that you have a Burton team who are full of confidence from a cup run last year, practically nothing to lose and the result was fairly predictable.

As with the England team, I don’t expect us to be winning trophies yet but I can see promising signs that we are strengthening, replacing the old guard and bringing in the right kinds of players at last. Also as with the England team, playing games together and setting up correctly is going to be critical to any success. I’m interested to see how we progress with this over the next few years. Hopefully the new training facilities and further investment in our academy will start to bear some fruit.
 
The most worrying element for me is that Eddie thinks we should have won with the team that he put out. To expect us to play with 'swagger' given the issues I've highlighted underlines a residual naivety which he must resolve if we are to move in the right direction.

That said... In Eddie We Trust
 
I think the most worrying thing is the performance of the players. Although I didn't go last night after everything written on here and Phil Thompsons summary on SSN it sounds like the players didn't care? Surely some of them are border line match day players/match day squad? I would of thought they would be busting a gut to impress. Heyho Utciad
 
I’d just like to pick up on a point from the original post.

Whilst the teams cup performances overall have been disappointing, personally they’re easier to accept as the Premier League is financially the be all and end all. So I understand why the decisions are made.

So for me, the “biggest letdown and disappointment of AFCB's PL era” is the lack of the training ground and stadium development being completed.

The answer to the team selections could also be helped by that as the team would then be involved in a higher level of competition to keep these fringe players and young players ticking over.
 
Fair point but I have some positivity about that now in that, barring any last minute hitches with the council, I think we'll have something tangible on the training ground front by the end of the season. Then we get to see what happens, if anything, about the stadium. It feels like progress is finally being made on the infrastructure front so I'm not so downbeat about it anymore.
 
sdr said:
I think the most worrying thing is the performance of the players. Although I didn't go last night after everything written on here and Phil Thompsons summary on SSN it sounds like the players didn't care? Surely some of them are border line match day players/match day squad? I would of thought they would be busting a gut to impress. Heyho Utciad
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I don’t think it was lack of effort. Lewis cook’s touch and passing were so poor but he worked hard. Wee man did one sliding tackle to win the ball that showed effort. What stood out was a total lack of incisive passing from defence and midfield. Kept going back and square with Burton happy to sit deep. Should add after the final floodlight resumption we looked well beaten at that point
 
kirsikka said:
Fair point but I have some positivity about that now in that, barring any last minute hitches with the council, I think we'll have something tangible on the training ground front by the end of the season. Then we get to see what happens, if anything, about the stadium. It feels like progress is finally being made on the infrastructure front so I'm not so downbeat about it anymore.
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Without wanting to sound like other users on the forum, I’ll believe it when I see it. But that’s not that I doubt it will happen. I’m just already disappointed about the time frame it’s taken to get there.

Those positives that it’ll bring should have already been baring some fruit.
 
AFCBade said:
Eddie’s stated ambition is to prioritise the league over cup. Made sense in early seasons but really wanted him to give it a go this season.

Having said that in all our years up to 2014, we have had one quarter final (back in 50s). He has delivered 3 quarter final league cup placements where we have lost in a busy league month to Liverpool, Chelsea and Chelsea. That is impressive.

Fa cup is a disaster in contrast. But after 6-8 games in December Eddie rests players.

Having travelled yesterday I was really hacked off with the display. Individual players are better than that but clearly a lack of intensity. That may come from Eddie as players know it’s not seen as important as the league. Having said that both Fraser and h Wilson missed two great chances when clean through. That isn’t eddie’s fault!

Southampton was a huge win and it was clear that a number of players were on the floor by the final whistle. Not sure it would have been wise to pick them yesterday given we have West Ham on Saturday both from fitness point of view and preparing the side for the game.
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AFCBade said:
Eddie’s stated ambition is to prioritise the league over cup. Made sense in early seasons but really wanted him to give it a go this season.

Having said that in all our years up to 2014, we have had one quarter final (back in 50s). He has delivered 3 quarter final league cup placements where we have lost in a busy league month to Liverpool, Chelsea and Chelsea. That is impressive.

Fa cup is a disaster in contrast. But after 6-8 games in December Eddie rests players.

Having travelled yesterday I was really hacked off with the display. Individual players are better than that but clearly a lack of intensity. That may come from Eddie as players know it’s not seen as important as the league. Having said that both Fraser and h Wilson missed two great chances when clean through. That isn’t eddie’s fault!

Southampton was a huge win and it was clear that a number of players were on the floor by the final whistle. Not sure it would have been wise to pick them yesterday given we have West Ham on Saturday both from fitness point of view and preparing the side for the game.[/QUOTE
DJ said:
Without wanting to sound like other users on the forum, I’ll believe it when I see it. But that’s not that I doubt it will happen. I’m just already disappointed about the time frame it’s taken to get there.

Those positives that it’ll bring should have already been baring some fruit.
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Jeff has been in the spotlight a bit more lately,which normally means good news is about to come out.So I believe the planning will be passed
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...The cup games will always be seen as Howe's Achilles heel....I still maintain that as we improve our first team squad then so we improve our 'reserve' squad and they should be motivated enough to go out and play with some fire and determination to achieve a positive result against teams that we should be beating...one cup upset is okay now and again but not consistently each season!
 
Garbo said:
...The cup games will always be seen as Howe's Achilles heel....I still maintain that as we improve our first team squad then so we improve our 'reserve' squad and they should be motivated enough to go out and play with some fire and determination to achieve a positive result against teams that we should be beating...one cup upset is okay now and again but not consistently each season!
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Think each season the gap between best xi and rest widens ie we tend to sign quality players like ake, billing and Lerma now vs likes of Tomlin and Atsu in first season of prem while those dropping out the team get older (eg Surman)
 
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