The youth - a first?

Old Cherry said:
The year 2204...the ' last humans' are on their last legs. Hank Marvin Syndrome in the ascendancy... the last Pie was consumed by the great grandson of one L.Tomlin ( tangents ...but he was mentioned in the previous post).....the Pie itself was being touted by its Agent to find the most famous Consumee on Gods Ailing Earth.. the Agent got garroted somewhere near Newcastle- under Lyme..and all Faeries died alongside him.. ..and dropped into a passing black- hole.
Doom....Bar.. not a bad pint...after several...
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And people want to ban / confine him
 
Amos of Springbourne said:
@SlowDownDerek my theory is that Eddie when he quit wanted assurances that lots of money would have been available to sign people, I suspect the board were nervous after the main signings for our last Prem season Kelly and Danjuma were rarely fit.
@CherriesOnTop it isn't a stupid statement I made, I named the only youngsters Eddie started in the league in 5 seasons, he liked signing players and despite likes of Tomlin, Atsu, Iturbe, Ibe, Murray, and Bennett not working out, overall the signings overall did well enough to last 5 years in the top flight. I wasnt having a pop at our best ever manager. I concede that perhaps our youngsters are now better quality, the ones Eddie used in cups are now clubless or in lower divisions, Matt Worthington (Yeovil) Corey Jordan (last seen at Weymouth), Jordan Green (last seen at Southend), and Matt Butcher (doing well at Accrington).
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You're talking waffle mate. You implied that he did not play young players in the league at all. I suppose you decided to miss out Danny Ings in your examples to add to your agenda? Or maybe the fact that he continued to play the youthful Sam Vokes? Or maybe you could completely forgot avout his first spell in charge? I would think of more examples but I really can't be bothered.
 
Things are going well at our Football Club...especially with the Youth at present.

But no one has yet said, like they usually do in interviews " things are going well - ' at the Football Club'..."...as if we didn't know it was a Football Club..as if we thought it was a Train Spotters Club or something....Harry used to say it often.." at the Football club"..
Like yeah..we know.. its a Football club !.. cuz football is played at it !

...these things amuse and confound me !
 
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CherriesOnTop said:
You're talking waffle mate. You implied that he did not play young players in the league at all. I suppose you decided to miss out Danny Ings in your examples to add to your agenda? Or maybe the fact that he continued to play the youthful Sam Vokes? Or maybe you could completely forgot avout his first spell in charge? I would think of more examples but I really can't be bothered.
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Sam Vokes played under Kevin Bond - he left the club for Wolves in May 2008
 
@CherriesOnTop I was talking based on what he did in the PL, he preferred signings to playing the youth, Ings played due in part to a transfer embargo and we were skint then in case you don't remember the circumstances. Josh McQuiod was another who benefitted from our lack of signings then.
 
wimborne cherries said:
Rossi has been the highlight for me so far. Wouldn’t say he’s been “better” than the others, but I can’t imagine many of us even know who he was 2 months ago?

His calmness on the ball Tuesday night was exceptional
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Been tracking his progress in Scotland for the last year. Lot to said for using that as a good place to send loanees rather than lower leagues. Maybe no fans last year, but playing Celtic and Rangers, and the number of repeat games all helps to build quality and improvement.

Comparing to Sam Sherring now to Accrington who is progressing, shows you have much Rossi has progressed.

The mission now is to get them prepared for the next level up, hopefully with us.
 
Amos of Springbourne said:
@CherriesOnTop I was talking based on what he did in the PL, he preferred signings to playing the youth, Ings played due in part to a transfer embargo and we were skint then in case you don't remember the circumstances. Josh McQuiod was another who benefitted from our lack of signings then.
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So you're comparing Eddie Howe with not playing youth players in the Premier League to Scott Parker playing youth players in the Championship with a number of first team regulars injured? Okay then lol
 
The young players that graduated during our time in the PL had mostly been part of the club as L1. The setup was being upgraded and along with it their education and improved recruitment.

Howe's strategy for young players was pretty clear. If he thought you had a reasonable chance of making it he'd send you out on loan to try and prove yourself rather than throwing you directly into the rigours of the PL.

Example 1 - Ryan Fraser. May not have been part of the youth setup but was signed as a just turned 19 year old. When he only got to play a bit part in the Championship winning season, rather than leave him with the same in the PL he sent him to a (then) top 10 Championship side in Ipswich for the year. When he did well, he was then integrated into the first team when he came back.

Example 2 - Aaron Ramsdale. Another signed young rather than graduate but the same principle applies. Sent on loan and, by accounts, played a big part in keeping AFC Wimbledon up in L1. Then given a chance to stake his claim in the first team which he did.

Example 3 - Sam Surridge. Sent on loans, progressively moving up the pyramid culminating in promotion from the Championship chasing Swansea. Did alright there but only as a bit-part player so recalled and given a chance in and around the first team squad. If he'd had made the kind of impact Fraser did at Ipswich (before injury) I suspect he'd have been entrusted even more.

Contrast that with how it went for Simpson. Kept around as backup just in case we needed him and it stunted his career. Good luck to him at Rangers but I can't help but feel he'd have been better off getting first team minutes elsewhere for at least a season.

Also contrast the three success cases with how the loans/careers went for the young players that graduated the academy. There isn't a single one that has shown yet 'wow, we dropped the ball there and missed out'. Despite plenty of others being given chances to go out on loan and prove themselves.

The players coming through now are the first group that really benefited at length from the increased youth team budget/coaching and so we should expect to see some perform at a higher level. Even if they were recruited as castoffs at 16/17, the same principle still applies.

Saying Howe never gave youth a chance is to miss the point entirely that, through no fault of their own, the youth coming through during those PL years had mostly joined with the expectation that they may win a contract at a L1 club. They simply weren't up to the PL.

In the last 30 years how many PL players has our youth system graduated? Ings (Southampton cast off at 16ish IIRC), Vokes and Jamie Redknapp (who I think was 'stolen' from the Spurs setup by his Dad). It isn't like we were regularly churning them out and so Howe was missing something compared to his predecessors. For all the great work done on limited resources, understandably, players coming through of that calibre were an absolute rarity.

In an alternate universe where we weren't relegated and Howe was still our manager in the PL I expect the likes Anthony, Zemura and Kilkenny would be spending this season on loan in the Championship with the promise that if they proved themselves then next season they'd get a chance to be a part of the PL squad.
 
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kirsikka said:
The young players that graduated during our time in the PL had mostly been part of the club as L1. The setup was being upgraded and along with it their education and improved recruitment.

Howe's strategy for young players was pretty clear. If he thought you had a reasonable chance of making it he'd send you out on loan to try and prove yourself rather than throwing you directly into the rigours of the PL.

Example 1 - Ryan Fraser. May not have been part of the youth setup but was signed as a just turned 19 year old. When he only got to play a bit part in the Championship winning season, rather than leave him with the same in the PL he sent him to a (then) top 10 Championship side in Ipswich for the year. When he did well, he was then integrated into the first team when he came back.

Example 2 - Aaron Ramsdale. Another signed young rather than graduate but the same principle applies. Sent on loan and, by accounts, played a big part in keeping AFC Wimbledon up in L1. Then given a chance to stake his claim in the first team which he did.

Example 3 - Sam Surridge. Sent on loans, progressively moving up the pyramid culminating in promotion from the Championship chasing Swansea. Did alright there but only as a bit-part player so recalled and given a chance in and around the first team squad. If he'd had made the kind of impact Fraser did at Ipswich (before injury) I suspect he'd have been entrusted even more.

Contrast that with how it went for Simpson. Kept around as backup just in case we needed him and it stunted his career. Good luck to him at Rangers but I can't help but feel he'd have been better off getting first team minutes elsewhere for at least a season.

Also contrast the three success cases with how the loans/careers went for the young players that graduated the academy. There isn't a single one that has shown yet 'wow, we dropped the ball there and missed out'. Despite plenty of others being given chances to go out on loan and prove themselves.

The players coming through now are the first group that really benefited at length from the increased youth team budget/coaching and so we should expect to see some perform at a higher level. Even if they were recruited as castoffs at 16/17, the same principle still applies.

Saying Howe never gave youth a chance is to miss the point entirely that, through no fault of their own, the youth coming through during those PL years had mostly joined with the expectation that they may win a contract at a L1 club. They simply weren't up to the PL.

In the last 30 years how many PL players has our youth system graduated? Ings (Southampton cast off at 16ish IIRC), Vokes and Jamie Redknapp (who I think was 'stolen' from the Spurs setup by his Dad). It isn't like we were regularly churning them out and so Howe was missing something compared to his predecessors. For all the great work done on limited resources, understandably, players coming through of that calibre were an absolute rarity.

In an alternate universe where we weren't relegated and Howe was still our manager in the PL I expect the likes Anthony, Zemura and Kilkenny would be spending this season on loan in the Championship with the promise that if they proved themselves then next season they'd get a chance to be a part of the PL squad.
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Trying to think of other players from our academy who played Premier League… Carl Fletcher played there for a time, and Scott Mean managed a few games for West Ham (another one who had his career hobbled by injuries). Oh and Neil Moss.
 
stevethepirate65 said:
Trying to think of other players from our academy who played Premier League… Carl Fletcher played there for a time, and Scott Mean managed a few games for West Ham (another one who had his career hobbled by injuries). Oh and Neil Moss.
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True. Thinking about it, Richard Hughes also racked up a few games for Portsmouth there as well.

However, apart from Redknapp who must have played about 10 games before being sold, they were all players who had proven themselves at a lower level before making that step up. Which was precisely what Howe was trying to do with the loans. Give them a chance to get to grips with the adult game before having to face off against the likes of Aguero.

I maintain the biggest loser from the youth team during Howe's years was Simpson. I don't think he'd ever have made it as a PL defender (still time for him to prove me wrong) but he's 100+ appearances short of where he should be in his career now.
 
I think the original post mentioned the last sixty years - I can remember two outstanding crops in that time.
1-The 1968-69 team that lost to Sunderland in the FAYC semi final (Ron Tilsed, David Jones, Chris Foote, Alan Summerhill, Denis Longhorn, Eddie Rowles, Peter Harman and Alan Green all went on to appear in the first team)
2-Reg Tyrrell’s squad of the early to mid seventies (Steve Chalk, Howard Goddard, Mark Nightingale, Steve Gritt, Kevin Reeves, Ian Cunningham, Kevin Bond – plus the ones that got away, Graham Roberts and David Stride)
 
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