Gary O'Neil

I didn’t think I was responding to “Even Eddie couldn’t keep us up” with anything controversial. Factual even.

He had kept us up for four seasons, it took the perfect storm to see him undone.

Take any one of those things away and we probably would have stayed up. Just like if you add any one of those things to previous seasons and we probably would have done as well. But it took all of those things combined for it to happen.

Digging deeper and just on the point of that squad, as we’ve already covered covid and goal line technology, with hindsight we had players who wanted away, who had been promised moves etc. The squad was in transition, we were bringing the average age down and the side was evolving. You have to do that, managers don’t tend to get the time to dissemble a side they themselves have primarily built. Most managers are gone before that point. But the evolution was in full process. With players lacking professional pride and accountability in the background.

We may well have “deserved” to go down, but teams who deserve it often don’t, like Everton. Sometimes you win games you don’t “deserve” to, sometimes you lose when you don’t deserve to. All those fine margins and “moments” to quote another former manager. Doesn’t mean it was beyond the realms of possibility though. Especially when it was just one single point.
 
If I remember correctly, yes, we were shite that season, but Villa were worse. How they stayed up over us was baffling. This season 5 teams were just awful, yet 2 stayed up. We were useless that year, but that doesn't mean we deserved to go down. Imho, we didn't. People glossing over the extra free point Villa received. Dean Smith has proved time and again he can't manage to tie his shoes. Like others have said, it was a perfect storm, but regardless of how bad we were, we were still very unlucky.
 
DJ said:
I didn’t think I was responding to “Even Eddie couldn’t keep us up” with anything controversial. Factual even.

He had kept us up for four seasons, it took the perfect storm to see him undone.

Take any one of those things away and we probably would have stayed up. Just like if you add any one of those things to previous seasons and we probably would have done as well. But it took all of those things combined for it to happen.

Digging deeper and just on the point of that squad, as we’ve already covered covid and goal line technology, with hindsight we had players who wanted away, who had been promised moves etc. The squad was in transition, we were bringing the average age down and the side was evolving. You have to do that, managers don’t tend to get the time to dissemble a side they themselves have primarily built. Most managers are gone before that point. But the evolution was in full process. With players lacking professional pride and accountability in the background.

We may well have “deserved” to go down, but teams who deserve it often don’t, like Everton. Sometimes you win games you don’t “deserve” to, sometimes you lose when you don’t deserve to. All those fine margins and “moments” to quote another former manager. Doesn’t mean it was beyond the realms of possibility though. Especially when it was just one single point.
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Every team stays up if you take away the reasons they go down. It's the manager's job to deal with setbacks and motivate the team.
 
SlowDownDerek said:
Every team stays up if you take away the reasons they go down. It's the manager's job to deal with setbacks and motivate the team.
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It’s the players job to concede fewer goals than they score and pick up results.

I thought we were scratching a little bit further under the surface than that though. :)
 
SlowDownDerek said:
Every team stays up if you take away the reasons they go down. It's the manager's job to deal with setbacks and motivate the team.
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Partially true. It's not the managers fault if VAR constantly goes against you and you can't buy a penalty all season. It's not his fault if you get more than your fair share of injuries to key players. If there is a pandemic that screws your momentum. If another team gets given a free point. If all bad things happen all at once, even a manager as good as Eddie Howe may struggle.
 
cherrybeetle said:
Partially true. It's not the managers fault if VAR constantly goes against you and you can't buy a penalty all season. It's not his fault if you get more than your fair share of injuries to key players. If there is a pandemic that screws your momentum. If another team gets given a free point. If all bad things happen all at once, even a manager as good as Eddie Howe may struggle.
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I don't agree. Everyone has their share of luck, like we against Palace when they went down to ten with 70 minutes of the game left or in the other game against palace where we had months to prepare and showed up half baked.
 
SlowDownDerek said:
I don't agree. Everyone has their share of luck, like we against Palace when they went down to ten with 70 minutes of the game left or in the other game against palace where we had months to prepare and showed up half baked.
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True. But, is a manager responsible for things outside of his control?
 
Neil Dawson said:
It was also our strongest squad on paper. The whole time in the PL with the exception of Ritchie leaving we didn’t lose a player we wanted to keep and only added. After a dodgy start on recruitment in our first top flight years our latter Howe years recruitment was decent.
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This is only true if you believe the ageing process doesn't exist.
 
SlowDownDerek said:
We didn't go down because of Covid or goal line technology, we went down because we were absolute dogshit that season.
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7th in November - dogshit after that point but showed signs of revival pre covid with home wins over Brighton and Villa plus nearly a win over Chelsea
RobTrent said:
Why would it affect us more than any other club?
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tbh lack of team spirit in certain games where we seemed to lose the fight we used to have was the primary cause of our demise plus not even shoring against the bottom clubs in 4 games did for us.

However, the trajectory going into lockdown was afcb on the up - picking up 25% of the season’s points total in just 3 home games before lockdown and better away. Villa and Brighton were in free fall.

Post lockdown we looked poor - empty Dean court was a leveller I think - but Villa and Brighton used the time to regroup better. Interesting Brighton issued fitness kit for players to use at home while Villa did a lot of discussion re why form slipped. Without the break think Villa would have struggled more
 
DJ said:
That’s a chicken and egg scenario in its own bubble though. Did Eddie run out of ideas with trying to motivate the players who were looking for a way out and their next moves?

How do you not take the whole thing with Ryan Fraser personally, you invest so much time and effort into someone who is happy to throw it back in your face? Must be difficult to not let that effect you, let alone the domino effect it has on others.

That one storm might have been easy enough to fend off in another scenario. Personally I think we would have gone to beat Crystal Palace if the season hadn’t been suspended the day before. That one result would have proved to be enough, regardless of the probable raise in confidence and form it would have also had a knock on effect with.

Such fine margins and it took all of that, plus failed goal line technology, to derail Eddie, which was my point. Fix one of a multitude of things that happened during that unique period of history, let alone season and he still would have kept us up.

Whether or not he was frazzled and needed to go afterwards would be a completely different hypothetical scenario to discuss.
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Yeah but most clubs have to deal with less than perfect situations each year. So many variables at play isn't there in defining a season.

Also, I'd expect a good manager to not take things personally... or at least not let it show or seriously effect their judgement. Iirc he persisted with Frazer, no doubt in part due to injuries iirc. If he was that phased by it, not sure he'd have involved him so much. I think Howe is extremely capable of blocking out emotion and feelings, always thinking of the bigger picture over personal grievances, despite some thinking he may be too nice/soft because he doesn't come across as aggressive alpha male type.

I expect he learnt alot from that season that will make him a better manager in future.

It was unfortunate storm of negative things, but ultimately its why top level managers get paid so much, or any managerial kind of role... to find solutions to those problems and deliver the objectives.
 
I hope he goes on to have a good career. But honestly, I can’t see him walking into even a championship job, divorced from the siege mentality of a post Parker dressing room, and being able to do much at all. Although we at sparing moments played some really nice football, we were way too fearful and lacking in identity. What exactly is he going to imprint into a Sheffield Wednesday team? Because it’s not a defined style of play or a tactical identity.
 
www.bournemouthecho.co.uk

Christie ‘couldn’t believe’ boss O’Neil had been sacked

CHERRIES ace Ryan Christie “couldn’t believe it” when he heard Gary O’Neil had been sacked as the club’s head coach, his dad Charlie has…
www.bournemouthecho.co.uk www.bournemouthecho.co.uk

I totally get why he's so proud of his son, but he should stop talking to the press about him, especially when it comes to controversial decisions the club have made. I think he should talk to his friends/family instead. Okay, on this occasion, not a massive deal saying Ryan was 'totally shocked' and he goes on to say that he thinks Ireola will be positive, but comments can be taken out of context, and he could land Ryan in trouble with the owners if he keeps doing this. I'd be really annoyed with him if I were Ryan.
 
Cherriess said:
www.bournemouthecho.co.uk

Christie ‘couldn’t believe’ boss O’Neil had been sacked

CHERRIES ace Ryan Christie “couldn’t believe it” when he heard Gary O’Neil had been sacked as the club’s head coach, his dad Charlie has…
www.bournemouthecho.co.uk www.bournemouthecho.co.uk

I totally get why he's so proud of his son, but he should stop talking to the press about him, especially when it comes to controversial decisions the club have made. I think he should talk to his friends/family instead. Okay, on this occasion, not a massive deal saying Ryan was 'totally shocked' and he goes on to say that he thinks Ireola will be positive, but comments can be taken out of context, and he could land Ryan in trouble with the owners if he keeps doing this. I'd be really annoyed with him if I were Ryan.
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Could be worse, he could have Surridge's dad
 
Cherriess said:
www.bournemouthecho.co.uk

Christie ‘couldn’t believe’ boss O’Neil had been sacked

CHERRIES ace Ryan Christie “couldn’t believe it” when he heard Gary O’Neil had been sacked as the club’s head coach, his dad Charlie has…
www.bournemouthecho.co.uk www.bournemouthecho.co.uk

I totally get why he's so proud of his son, but he should stop talking to the press about him, especially when it comes to controversial decisions the club have made. I think he should talk to his friends/family instead. Okay, on this occasion, not a massive deal saying Ryan was 'totally shocked' and he goes on to say that he thinks Ireola will be positive, but comments can be taken out of context, and he could land Ryan in trouble with the owners if he keeps doing this. I'd be really annoyed with him if I were Ryan.
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However shocked he was at the sacking wont register as close as the shock we used to feel when GON brought his son on to try and get us a goal…
 
NWCherries98 said:
I hope he goes on to have a good career. But honestly, I can’t see him walking into even a championship job, divorced from the siege mentality of a post Parker dressing room, and being able to do much at all. Although we at sparing moments played some really nice football, we were way too fearful and lacking in identity. What exactly is he going to imprint into a Sheffield Wednesday team? Because it’s not a defined style of play or a tactical identity.
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I think he'll get a Championship job, no problem. A struggling PL club may even fancy their chances with him mid/nearing end of season. His stock is high right now. To those outside this club, he did a great job.
 
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