Israel, non

MB1980

MB1980

UTC Legend
Ken Baileys Ghost said:
Is totally fucked up.

I despair of both sides


There's no solution to this and I doubt then US will have the guts to intervene properly
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Reading a bit about it really sharpens the mind, in terms of how worked up we/some are getting over the football recently, whereas many living in that part of the world must be terrified to unimaginable amounts as to their and their families safety, and good knows what may come in the future.
 
Garbo said:
A massive world problem in the Middle East one side hugely backed by the USA and the other by Arab states and other American enemy countries.

Innocents from both sides sacrificed by the military generals in a power struggle for territories…
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Yeah. Been simmering, boiling over, simmering, boiling over.... for decades hasn't it. Not sure what the solution is likely to be, but will need the 'backers' to back down/come to an agreement if it's to ever cease. Seems a millions miles away doesn't it.

When doing the travelling thing 20 years ago, my mate (proper 'leftie', had hammer and sickle tattooed on his leg...) gave me some Noam Chomsky books to read. US involvement/investment he claimed with Israel was pretty alarming, can't recall the intricate detail now though, but from what I can recall US certainly not interested in assisting with any 'peace' deals for various reasons... perhaps things have changed.
 
I mean it's simple isn't it? Israel just needs to stop clearing out the West Bank and putting settlements in it. I just don't get it. If I was Israeli, why the hell would I want to go and displace a family in order to live in a contested part of Palestine? It doesn't make any sense.
 
It's so unimaginably complicated. Firstly, imagine believing that God gave you the land, only to hear that the other side also believes God gave them the land. Next, generations of your family have been attacked or killed by the enemy and the threats still continue. This happens on both sides. One side supposedly has control of some territories, but the other is illegally building homes inside that territory and extremists attacking your people within your own territory. Then outside your territories, your people including children who were born outside the territories have routinely had rights deprived and even sometimes been shot at on their way to school or work and pushed out of their homes over borders. On the other side, you are surrounded by countries and territories who don't recognise the legitimacy of your state. Some of these countries have attacked you from their borders or funded people within the Gaza Strip or Palestinian Territories to do so. You know that compromise can happen and lines drawn, but really, the other side believes all your land is theirs and will ultimately want it at some point. In your mind, the only way to protect yourself is to attack, expand and create a buffer zone and why not? God gave you the land. What I've wriiten here is such a brief summary that doesn't really explain 1% of what's happened. It's such a horrific mess. The only way there can ever be any hint of a solution is for compromise and in time forgiveness on both sides. But, compromise involves trust and vulnerability and both sides have been in survival fight-flight mode all their lives and how can you forgive all of this? Add into this, the politicians on both sides doing what politicians do best, which is lying, scheming and generally representing themselves. We're indeed so lucky that we have the freedom/safety to moan about our football club being terrible. I don't think we're wrong to. I just wish other people in the world were able to do the same.
 
True, Cheriess.

The whole region has been a tinderbox for decades, due to the extremely complex and bitter religious/political melting pot of the area, which frankly we played a part in getting very wrong when administering and alllocating the British mandate territories after the Second World War. What’s going on there now is just horrendous for both sides but, sick though it is, don’t you need to ask yourself why Hamas did what they did in the first place, because without addressing that, won’t it just happen again albeit after the next few thousand lives (mostly I’m guessing Palestinian civilians) have been taken?

Looking a bit wider, what never ceases to amaze and depress me is how many in the West cry moral indignation over Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine, but stay silent over or support the state of Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and say nothing about the building of new settlements there? Both territories are recognised as having been Occupied by Israel since the six-day war in 1967, by the UN and EU. And to make matters worse, US apparent enthusiastic support for Israel’s illegal annexation of East Jerusalem to make the whole city its capital doesn’t quite square with its views about Russia’s illegal annexation of Crimea and parts of Ukraine. Neither of these is right, and both are at the expense of innocent civilians who are losing their homes and lives to superpower geo-politics. The hypocrisy is however breathtaking.

As always the solution can only lie where the Superpowers best interests and sympathies lie I think. They pull the strings in the end. In the meantime pity the poor people of both Israel and Palestinian Territories.
 
New Forest Cherry said:
260 gunned down by cowardly terrorists at a music festival and not a word of condemnation
the far left's anti-Israel obsession is really very odd

jezza phoning the florist as we speak in case some of his mates get caught in the reprisals
hang on, is he hamas of hezbollah? I forget, probably both
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1000s gunned down by cowardly terrorists and land stealers every year and not one word of condemnation.

The Rights anti-Palestine obsession is really odd.
 
New Forest Cherry said:
260 gunned down by cowardly terrorists at a music festival and not a word of condemnation
the far left's anti-Israel obsession is really very odd

jezza phoning the florist as we speak in case some of his mates get caught in the reprisals
hang on, is he hamas of hezbollah? I forget, probably both
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Gunned down v caught in the reprisals
People being killed being used for political point scoring.is a real low even for daily mail headline readers.

A legacy of the british mandate.
 
At the risk of sounding callous, I recall an old work colleague who had a job for a while in that part of the world, and his summation was that both sides deserved one another. The abuses of human rights, the law, and dignity are wholesale on both sides and the inability of people to build bridges instead of blowing them up is so depressing to watch.
 
beds cherry said:
Wouldn't it be nice one day if the normal peace loving people of the world (And yes, the vast majority of people are 'nice') just came out and said. 'I'm' sick of this ******************************** - I just want to live my life!'
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I'm sure the peace loving Palestinians think this every day. Then they wake up in the Gaza strip with 50% unemployment, 65% below the poverty line, deteriorating health conditions with 97 percent of the water undrinkable, surrounded by constant terror with no way of leaving freely.

It's the worst kind of human prison in many senses.

I do not condone Hamas or any of their actions, but they are retaliating against an oppressive regime that is not called out by many around the world for what it is. In fact it has become antisemitic to even question the regime in many respects. So long as Palestinians suffer in silence we can be in denial and continue to justify our cosy relationship with Israel.

Palestinian people need to be freed and given safe passage, and if a compromise cannot be made on land ownership, then they at least need to be treated humanely and given fair opportunity of a quality of life. Not punished from birth for their ethnicity. Something which you would hope a jewish state may have some empathy for given recent history.

If Israel is really serious about stopping terrorist groups (rather than the genocidal end game I suspect) then they would stop pushing the civilian Palestinian population to breaking point.
 
Red Sky said:
I'm sure the peace loving Palestinians think this every day. Then they wake up in the Gaza strip with 50% unemployment, 65% below the poverty line, deteriorating health conditions with 97 percent of the water undrinkable, surrounded by constant terror with no way of leaving freely.

It's the worst kind of human prison in many senses.

I do not condone Hamas or any of their actions, but they are retaliating against an oppressive regime that is not called out by many around the world for what it is. In fact it has become antisemitic to even question the regime in many respects. So long as Palestinians suffer in silence we can be in denial and continue to justify our cosy relationship with Israel.

Palestinian people need to be freed and given safe passage, and if a compromise cannot be made on land ownership, then they at least need to be treated humanely and given fair opportunity of a quality of life. Not punished from birth for their ethnicity. Something which you would hope a jewish state may have some empathy for given recent history.

If Israel is really serious about stopping terrorist groups (rather than the genocidal end game I suspect) then they would stop pushing the civilian Palestinian population to breaking point.
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And 70% of the population is made up of migrants seeking refuge from oppressive regimes. Yet we have the usual voices over here moaning about a few small boats and asking why don’t they go the the nearest country. Well, most of them do.
 
I think the attacks on Saturday went way beyond having anything to

Red Sky said:
I'm sure the peace loving Palestinians think this every day. Then they wake up in the Gaza strip with 50% unemployment, 65% below the poverty line, deteriorating health conditions with 97 percent of the water undrinkable, surrounded by constant terror with no way of leaving freely.

It's the worst kind of human prison in many senses.

I do not condone Hamas or any of their actions, but they are retaliating against an oppressive regime that is not called out by many around the world for what it is. In fact it has become antisemitic to even question the regime in many respects. So long as Palestinians suffer in silence we can be in denial and continue to justify our cosy relationship with Israel.

Palestinian people need to be freed and given safe passage, and if a compromise cannot be made on land ownership, then they at least need to be treated humanely and given fair opportunity of a quality of life. Not punished from birth for their ethnicity. Something which you would hope a jewish state may have some empathy for given recent history.

If Israel is really serious about stopping terrorist groups (rather than the genocidal end game I suspect) then they would stop pushing the civilian Palestinian population to breaking point.
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Hamas is a terrorist organisation that is anti semitic. It suppresses women and minorities such as Gay people. Look at how they have been parading dead women half naked. Taking children from their parents.

They were voted in by the Gazan electorate when Israel left in 2005.
When they took power they killed members of the secular Palestinian party, Fatah. Usually by pushing them off high buildings.

They aren't retaliating. Their slogan is "from the river to the sea". Their charter calls for the death and destruction of all Israelis.
 
Leeds Cherry said:
I think the attacks on Saturday went way beyond having anything to


Hamas is a terrorist organisation that is anti semitic. It suppresses women and minorities such as Gay people. Look at how they have been parading dead women half naked. Taking children from their parents.

They were voted in by the Gazan electorate when Israel left in 2005.
When they took power they killed members of the secular Palestinian party, Fatah. Usually by pushing them off high buildings.

They aren't retaliating. Their slogan is "from the river to the sea". Their charter calls for the death and destruction of all Israelis.
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"Hamas military commander Muhammad Al-Deif called the operation “Al-Aqsa Storm” and said that the assault on Israel was a response to attacks on women, the desecration of the al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem and the ongoing siege of Gaza."

And even if their ultimate aim is the destruction of Israel, Israel are giving ordinary Palestinians plenty of good reasons for wanting them destroyed which is doing Hamas's recruitment for them. My previous statements about treating people humanely stands well and firm. There's no excuse for the way Israel treats ordinary Palestinians unless they want the situation to escalate so they can justify ethnically cleansing the area.
 
Leeds Cherry said:
I think the attacks on Saturday went way beyond having anything to


Hamas is a terrorist organisation that is anti semitic. It suppresses women and minorities such as Gay people. Look at how they have been parading dead women half naked. Taking children from their parents.

They were voted in by the Gazan electorate when Israel left in 2005.
When they took power they killed members of the secular Palestinian party, Fatah. Usually by pushing them off high buildings.

They aren't retaliating. Their slogan is "from the river to the sea". Their charter calls for the death and destruction of all Israelis.
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They were voted in. The people of Gaza want them. Israel's uber right government that commits state sponsored terrorism on virtually a daily basis was also voted in. The people of Israel want them. I'm struggling to see a solution to this overwhelming tragedy of events.
 
Listen, redrawing the boundaries, Israel exiting the West Bank, and providing a Palestinian home state would ameliorate the lives of many. But none of that is going to happen. Both sides feel that the land is their birthright and are not prepared to give an inch. The Palestinians have been provided opportunities for a home state, but have rejected what was offered as it did not meet their needs.

And, even if that all happened, Hamas, Hezbollah and their backing state Iran are not at all looking for a peaceful outcome. They want the elimination of the Jews and total sway over Jerusalem, which they won't get.

Meanwhile, watch your oil prices go up yet again.

Exodus:

This land is mine
God gave this land to me
This brave and ancient land to me
And when the morning sun
Reveals her hills and plains
Then I see a land
Where children can run free

To make this land our home
If I must fight, I'll fight
To make this land our own
Until I die, this land is mine
 
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