The Abuse of Kelly v3

DJ said:
23 years old, playing in a new country and division but written off before he’s played 400 odd minutes of football.
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Not writing him off. Just disappointed with the output so far for a plus 20m player who has been here 8 months.
 
Neil Dawson said:
He hasn’t started a league game in three opportunities after a full pre season. It’s hardly a weird claim. Startingy a 2nd round caravan cup game is actually more proof you are second choice these days.
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you claimed "He doesn’t bring much to the game skill wise and two managers haven’t started him" 1 manager has been in charge for 4 games which he played in 3 other manager started him when he was fit
 
Can we all pick a team? I'll take Chelsea if they're still available.

1F91E.webp


(@DJ are they ever going to fix the server issue with emojis?)
 
Neil Dawson said:
I think we waste money. I watch him play and he hasn’t got the work rate and is light weight. He doesn’t bring much to the game skill wise and two managers haven’t started him. I think this is what happens when you give £22m to unprofessional recruiters.

Clubs like Sunderland did the same. Collect a disconnected bunch of expensive agent led deals with no strategy in terms of how many in what position and whether they can meet a managers style. We are the fourth largest spenders in the PL and if we don’t bring money in for any of these players like Brighton do we are f***ed and risk losing our club. Do you look at any of our players and think the big six will be hunting them down for 70m deals? I’m surprised more people aren’t worried about long term damage.

I watch Zab completely lose players and think there’s better championship centre half’s for a quarter of the price…

Brighton signed Mitoma for 2.6m. Burnley and West Ham are looking at Divock Origi for 7m

So for me Traore is indicative of our flawed strategy . It may well be he is one for the future and blossoms into a fine footballer. If so i will ecstatically hold my hands up and say I was wrong like I have on other occasions.
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I can see that he’s a bit lightweight in the sense that he’s not perhaps gotten used to the physicality of the league. I’d argue he hasn’t been started much because of a combination last season of injury and needing time to adjust (he’s a foreign 22 year old joining a new club in a tumultuous period, remember), and then this season there being a lot of competition for places. Which is a positive imo.

According to Whoscored he’s second behind Rothwell for successful dribbles per 90 this season, and was the 3rd best player on the pitch last night. Not much to go on given his lack of minutes but certainly not awful. Last season, again in fewer appearances than most, he topped our stats for dribbling, key passes, crosses, and was apparently our third best player of the season!

I’m not going to sit here and state that Whoscored is the bible, but with these specific metrics, it shows that Traore does objectively offer a lot on the pitch per 90 minutes. Imo, once he gets starts, he’ll become one of our best players. And yes, probably a £22 million player in this current market, especially given his age. It’s no crime to be behind Billing onin the pecking order as a young player.

I think the strategy since Foley came in has been pretty clear; sign talented young players with a high potential sell on value. I’ll be honest, I’ve not been impressed with Zab either, but the raw qualities are there. I can 100% see him going for a lot of money eventually. Same with Scott (obviously), Kerkez, Ouattara, Adams, and maybe even Semenyo if he carries on like this. Once we start (hopefully) cementing good league finishes, we become more valuable to elite young players who want to come to the premier league, and then we can start charging premiums like Brighton do.

I think it’s a bit unfair to compare us to Brighton. They’re being wholly bankrolled by a billionaire fan who can also provide elite, bespoke metrics that no other club has access too. Everyone keeps talking about their amazing transfer business; I guess I’m the only one that remembers megaflops like Jahanbakhsh, or Locadia. They’ve had just as many misses as any other club, we just don’t hear about them cos it’s not fashionable. They’ve also been using Belgian clubs as feeders to preemptively develop their bargain bin signings. Sounds an awful lot like what we’re presumably trying to emulate with Lorient and our own mystery Belgian club? Players like Mitoma and Estupinan and Caicedo are the exception, not the rule.

I also think they’ve benefited a LOT from poorly run clubs absolutely fucking the market over. Chelsea, mainly. We haven’t had a chance to sell a prized asset for big bucks yet, I wouldn’t be surprised if someone like Kerkez goes for £60+ million eventually.

Also, West Ham are welcome to Origi lol. Of all the players you could use as an example if our failings in the transfer market :grinning:

I can see why you have the fears that you do, but I have a different perspective on it obviously. I think our business in the last two windows has been very good.
 
NWCherries98 said:
I can see that he’s a bit lightweight in the sense that he’s not perhaps gotten used to the physicality of the league. I’d argue he hasn’t been started much because of a combination last season of injury and needing time to adjust (he’s a foreign 22 year old joining a new club in a tumultuous period, remember), and then this season there being a lot of competition for places. Which is a positive imo.

According to Whoscored he’s second behind Rothwell for successful dribbles per 90 this season, and was the 3rd best player on the pitch last night. Not much to go on given his lack of minutes but certainly not awful. Last season, again in fewer appearances than most, he topped our stats for dribbling, key passes, crosses, and was apparently our third best player of the season!

I’m not going to sit here and state that Whoscored is the bible, but with these specific metrics, it shows that Traore does objectively offer a lot on the pitch per 90 minutes. Imo, once he gets starts, he’ll become one of our best players. And yes, probably a £22 million player in this current market, especially given his age. It’s no crime to be behind Billing onin the pecking order as a young player.

I think the strategy since Foley came in has been pretty clear; sign talented young players with a high potential sell on value. I’ll be honest, I’ve not been impressed with Zab either, but the raw qualities are there. I can 100% see him going for a lot of money eventually. Same with Scott (obviously), Kerkez, Ouattara, Adams, and maybe even Semenyo if he carries on like this. Once we start (hopefully) cementing good league finishes, we become more valuable to elite young players who want to come to the premier league, and then we can start charging premiums like Brighton do.

I think it’s a bit unfair to compare us to Brighton. They’re being wholly bankrolled by a billionaire fan who can also provide elite, bespoke metrics that no other club has access too. Everyone keeps talking about their amazing transfer business; I guess I’m the only one that remembers megaflops like Jahanbakhsh, or Locadia. They’ve had just as many misses as any other club, we just don’t hear about them cos it’s not fashionable. They’ve also been using Belgian clubs as feeders to preemptively develop their bargain bin signings. Sounds an awful lot like what we’re presumably trying to emulate with Lorient and our own mystery Belgian club? Players like Mitoma and Estupinan and Caicedo are the exception, not the rule.

I also think they’ve benefited a LOT from poorly run clubs absolutely fucking the market over. Chelsea, mainly. We haven’t had a chance to sell a prized asset for big bucks yet, I wouldn’t be surprised if someone like Kerkez goes for £60+ million eventually.

Also, West Ham are welcome to Origi lol. Of all the players you could use as an example if our failings in the transfer market :grinning:

I can see why you have the fears that you do, but I have a different perspective on it obviously. I think our business in the last two windows has been very good.
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Very good... :clap:
 
NWCherries98 said:
I can see that he’s a bit lightweight in the sense that he’s not perhaps gotten used to the physicality of the league. I’d argue he hasn’t been started much because of a combination last season of injury and needing time to adjust (he’s a foreign 22 year old joining a new club in a tumultuous period, remember), and then this season there being a lot of competition for places. Which is a positive imo.

According to Whoscored he’s second behind Rothwell for successful dribbles per 90 this season, and was the 3rd best player on the pitch last night. Not much to go on given his lack of minutes but certainly not awful. Last season, again in fewer appearances than most, he topped our stats for dribbling, key passes, crosses, and was apparently our third best player of the season!

I’m not going to sit here and state that Whoscored is the bible, but with these specific metrics, it shows that Traore does objectively offer a lot on the pitch per 90 minutes. Imo, once he gets starts, he’ll become one of our best players. And yes, probably a £22 million player in this current market, especially given his age. It’s no crime to be behind Billing onin the pecking order as a young player.

I think the strategy since Foley came in has been pretty clear; sign talented young players with a high potential sell on value. I’ll be honest, I’ve not been impressed with Zab either, but the raw qualities are there. I can 100% see him going for a lot of money eventually. Same with Scott (obviously), Kerkez, Ouattara, Adams, and maybe even Semenyo if he carries on like this. Once we start (hopefully) cementing good league finishes, we become more valuable to elite young players who want to come to the premier league, and then we can start charging premiums like Brighton do.

I think it’s a bit unfair to compare us to Brighton. They’re being wholly bankrolled by a billionaire fan who can also provide elite, bespoke metrics that no other club has access too. Everyone keeps talking about their amazing transfer business; I guess I’m the only one that remembers megaflops like Jahanbakhsh, or Locadia. They’ve had just as many misses as any other club, we just don’t hear about them cos it’s not fashionable. They’ve also been using Belgian clubs as feeders to preemptively develop their bargain bin signings. Sounds an awful lot like what we’re presumably trying to emulate with Lorient and our own mystery Belgian club? Players like Mitoma and Estupinan and Caicedo are the exception, not the rule.

I also think they’ve benefited a LOT from poorly run clubs absolutely fucking the market over. Chelsea, mainly. We haven’t had a chance to sell a prized asset for big bucks yet, I wouldn’t be surprised if someone like Kerkez goes for £60+ million eventually.

Also, West Ham are welcome to Origi lol. Of all the players you could use as an example if our failings in the transfer market :grinning:

I can see why you have the fears that you do, but I have a different perspective on it obviously. I think our business in the last two windows has been very good.
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Excellent post. I can see Kerkez going for big money once he sorts out defensive concentration which will come. Big hopes for Scott too. I think we seem to gradually be getting better at recruitment and this window has been better than the winter one. I don’t think we will get our money back on Outtara, Zab or Traore but can see it on Kerkez and like the potential of Scott.

Too much is made of Brentford and Brightons bloody metrics. Brentford’s Collins has been outstanding for them in their first few games and they signed him from Wolves because he was excellent against them in the 1-1 draw at Brentford last year and they kept tabs on him. You don’t need excel skills and a betting company for that. You just need professional recruiters.
 
Neil Dawson said:
He hasn’t started a league game in three opportunities after a full pre season. It’s hardly a weird claim. Startingy a 2nd round caravan cup game is actually more proof you are second choice these days.
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And yet you use the opposite argument when discussing Kelly. By your definition Kelly is down the pecking order because Senesi has started 3 of the 4 games this season.
 
Neil Dawson said:
Excellent post. I can see Kerkez going for big money once he sorts out defensive concentration which will come. Big hopes for Scott too. I think we seem to gradually be getting better at recruitment and this window has been better than the winter one. I don’t think we will get our money back on Outtara, Zab or Traore but can see it on Kerkez and like the potential of Scott.

Too much is made of Brentford and Brightons bloody metrics. Brentford’s Collins has been outstanding for them in their first few games and they signed him from Wolves because he was excellent against them in the 1-1 draw at Brentford last year and they kept tabs on him. You don’t need excel skills and a betting company for that. You just need professional recruiters.
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"Better at recruitment" this window? This is the summer window when we have a full PL season ahead of us with a proven manager not the January window when we're odds on favourites for relegation. Of course we had to pay more for what was available at the time. Last summer window was excellent.

What makes Collins any better than Kerkez, Aarons, Scott, Adams, etc as a signing?
 
Neil Dawson said:
I think we waste money. I watch him play and he hasn’t got the work rate and is light weight. He doesn’t bring much to the game skill wise and two managers haven’t started him. I think this is what happens when you give £22m to unprofessional recruiters.

Clubs like Sunderland did the same. Collect a disconnected bunch of expensive agent led deals with no strategy in terms of how many in what position and whether they can meet a managers style. We are the fourth largest spenders in the PL and if we don’t bring money in for any of these players like Brighton do we are f***ed and risk losing our club. Do you look at any of our players and think the big six will be hunting them down for 70m deals? I’m surprised more people aren’t worried about long term damage.

I watch Zab completely lose players and think there’s better championship centre half’s for a quarter of the price…

Brighton signed Mitoma for 2.6m. Burnley and West Ham are looking at Divock Origi for 7m

So for me Traore is indicative of our flawed strategy . It may well be he is one for the future and blossoms into a fine footballer. If so i will ecstatically hold my hands up and say I was wrong like I have on other occasions.
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So, aside from his 300 professional appearances in a number of leagues, including a good portion of Premier League appearances and a lifetime in football, at what point did you deduce that Hughes is an 'unprofessional recruiter'?
 
SlowDownDerek said:
"Better at recruitment" this window? This is the summer window when we have a full PL season ahead of us with a proven manager not the January window when we're odds on favourites for relegation. Of course we had to pay more for what was available at the time. Last summer window was excellent.

What makes Collins any better than Kerkez, Aarons, Scott, Adams, etc as a signing?
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I didn’t say he was?
 
Nevillez66 said:
So, aside from his 300 professional appearances in a number of leagues, including a good portion of Premier League appearances and a lifetime in football, at what point did you deduce that Hughes is an 'unprofessional recruiter'?
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It’s a different skill. He was a professional footballer. If you look at the much vaunted recruiters in our league including Dan Ashworth who Newcastle poached from Brighton as he is acknowledged as the best in the UK he didn’t even play professional football.
 
Druss_the_Legend said:
Kelly taken off at half time last night and Senesi chosen ahead of him at CB... so that answers that question once and for all for you surely?
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No. We wanted to give Kerkez a rest and Kelly the only other player that can play left back. That’s blindingly obvious I would have thought.
 
Neil Dawson said:
It’s a different skill. He was a professional footballer. If you look at the much vaunted recruiters in our league including Dan Ashworth who Newcastle poached from Brighton as he is acknowledged as the best in the UK he didn’t even play professional football.
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So you're using the fact that he used to be a professional footballer against him in this argument......interesting
 
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