The statement we’ve all been waiting for

Neil Dawson said:
You didn’t mention his sale could buy facilities though. It read like your personal view that we need these facilities to sign/keep top players.

What would have been your strategy for the last four years out of interest? Would you have stopped Eddie signing players and built the ground/ training facility or both? Which would you have prioritised and which season would you have stopped the transfer funding?
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I’ve already stated what I’d do if I was playing fantasy football manager.

I’d fund phase one and two of the training pitches with the profits the club announced via their last two accountancy years.

Or I’d get a loan secured against the parachute payments that are guaranteed in the event of our relegation.

Sheffield United got a £7.5million loan at 6% on future installement payments from afcb so I’m sure we could get a similar figure to fund the start of the training ground complex and it wouldn’t make much of an impact on the playing budget.
 
red_house said:
I think the importance is being put on the academy rather than training facilities. No one can deny that will eventually get a return in Investment.
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When it comes to youth teams...Return on investment emotionally yes...the financial return not so much.

I work with acquisition and construction like SDD so do a lot of similar projects.

The rule of thumb is you expect 8- 10% return annually on a new build . Else you could have invested in funds, buying an existing operation etc and made the same return. An acre of land is around 700k and I reckon we would need six. The build would be 15 or so million. I reckon all in we would be looking at 20m minimum. You would need to sell a player every single year for 2m developed by that facility to hit return on investment. You could argue if we sell one for 10m after five years that’s the same but return doesn’t work like that...there will be an expected constant return not a wait and see.

Only a club could fund this itself. There are many compelling reasons for doing it I agree we just need to say when is the year we turn off Eddies transfer pot or sell a player and use the funds exclusively for that.
 
DJ said:
I’ve already stated what I’d do if I was playing fantasy football manager.

I’d fund phase one and two of the training pitches with the profits the club announced via their last two accountancy years.

Or I’d get a loan secured against the parachute payments that are guaranteed in the event of our relegation.

Sheffield United got a £7.5million loan at 6% on future installement payments from afcb so I’m sure we could get a similar figure to fund the start of the training ground complex and it wouldn’t make much of an impact on the playing budget.
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The parachute payments are there to support the gap in wages vs gate money when you drop. Our gate money is worth 6m a year ( if full which we often weren’t in the championship) our current wage bill is 60m. You don’t need to be a corporate accountant to work out where the parachute payments are going DJ.

Else you are going to be the fantasy football chairman stood in front of Eddie (your single best hope of promotion) telling him ‘I’ve sold your whole squad but we have bought Jayden Stockley back’.
 
red_house said:
I think the importance is being put on the academy rather than training facilities. No one can deny that will eventually get a return in Investment.
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Any return on investment in an academy is far from certain. Apart from the capital expenditure Southampton spend several million a year to run their academy and it hasn't produced a decent player in years. James Ward Prowse being the only current example I can think of. And that's the only Cat 1 Academy for miles around able to attract talent by telling kids' parents that their little Josh could be the next Gareth Bale or Oxlade-Chamberlain.

I am not saying an improved academy and dedicated new training ground is not worth doing. I would like to see both. Just that an academy is not guaranteed to make money.
 
Neil Dawson said:
The parachute payments are there to support the gap in wages vs gate money when you drop. Our gate money is worth 6m a year ( if full which we often weren’t in the championship) our current wage bill is 60m. You don’t need to be a corporate accountant to work out where the parachute payments are going DJ.

Else you are going to be the fantasy football chairman stood in front of Eddie (your single best hope of promotion) telling him ‘I’ve sold your whole squad but we have bought Jayden Stockley back’.
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I know full well what the parachute payments are in place for.

But I don’t believe we’d be using them as I don’t think we’ll go down this season.

It’s the security of the loan, not spending them.

We have the profit in the accounts to actually fund the loan.
 
Fair player Roger - devils advocate here

Everyone is assuming we need a return on a new stadium and academy and its critical because thats what businesses do etc .

Do none of the experts on here not think that Max would have known that? I cant imagine he suddenly woke up and thought 'I won't get 8% return 'so cancel it please. Is he that stupid ?

My guess is he's sat down with Eddie and decided to Invest in the playing side first and foremost - I think its that simple.
 
red_house said:
Fair player Roger - devils advocate here

Everyone is assuming we need a return on a new stadium and academy and its critical because thats what businesses do etc .

Do none of the experts on here not think that Max would have known that? I cant imagine he suddenly woke up and thought 'I won't get 8% return 'so cancel it please. Is he that stupid ?

No chance, obviously he's sat down with Eddie and decided to Invest in the playing side first and foremost - I think its that simple.
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I don't understand your point. If it gave a decent return they'd just build it.

I suspect Max wants to improve things but the costs of every option are too high to justify.
 
My point is that you are banging on about returns / returns / returns as the reason its isnt happening.

Do you not think for a minute he sat down and worked all of that out in the years it took to locate the site for a stadium.
 
Might the overwhelming frustration come from shelving expansion plans on the (implicit, admittedly) promise of new build, now that's off the table (in the short term it seems) yet no noise about any expansion. I understand the arguments about return on investment, but the mixed messages coming from the club does feel like we've been repeatedly fobbed off. I've often been the first to say that we don't know what's happening, defending the club as it may at sensitive points in negotiations, but can totally see why some might feel aggrieved or ignored, especially given the much louder voice the fans used to have pre-investment
 
red_house said:
My point is that you are banging on about returns / returns / returns as the reason its isnt happening.

Do you not think for a minute he sat down and worked all of that out in the years it took to locate the site for a stadium.
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Yes I do think he did that. Then he decided it was too expensive when the costs inevitably started spiralling. I've never said he won't do it - I've said it's a poor investment from a financial standpoint so he's going to have to dig deep one way or another.
 
cockbeard said:
Might the overwhelming frustration come from shelving expansion plans on the (implicit, admittedly) promise of new build, now that's off the table (in the short term it seems) yet no noise about any expansion. I understand the arguments about return on investment, but the mixed messages coming from the club does feel like we've been repeatedly fobbed off. I've often been the first to say that we don't know what's happening, defending the club as it may at sensitive points in negotiations, but can totally see why some might feel aggrieved or ignored, especially given the much louder voice the fans used to have pre-investment
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Yes, their communication is shite and they've been treating us like mugs for years. They don't appear to care about that though.
 
SlowDownDerek said:
Yes I do think he did that. Then he decided it was too expensive when the costs inevitably started spiralling. I've never said he won't do it - I've said it's a poor investment from a financial standpoint so he's going to have to dig deep one way or another.
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I think the low baller may have been the ridiculous sudden rise in transfer fees . He was seemingly happy to buy land and get planning permission, no doubt he must have had an idea of cost and the returns, the same with the stadium but then bang £25 million on Lerma the price just went up and up and the realisation the new TV rights have blown transfer fees out of all proportion.

The positives I guess are that Max must have faith that Eddie will stay for the forseeable if he's backing him in to such an extent on the field. If its a tactic to build for long term PL status over facilities then its a brave one but needs trust that Eddie won't suddenly walk. The team reaction and performance at Watford would suggest that despite the club statement , everything is good behind the scenes.

As you say communication with the fan base is diabolical but its always been the case since Max arrived and literally shut up shop in that respect. The club is now tighter than a ducks ****************, no one is ITK, nothing is leaked, there are no rumours with substance. No one fancies a one way trip to the Gulag.
 
The full costs will have taken time to emerge.

Firstly it may have proved much more expensive than anticipated to put together the finance package to pay for the build and service the subsequent debt.

Secondly, Structadene may not have played ball: their land will be worth more as a development plot for housing than the rent they get from us, so the club may have been expecting them to be willing to curtail the lease on DC at no cost, or even to make some contribution in return for planning consent for redevelopment.

Third, the council (which owns the athletics track) may have been greedy in what they wanted to replace it and other infrastructure around the park in return for planning permission. I don't know much about Max but I do know he does not like being taken for a ride.

Fourth, the market research may have found there is only a very limited prawn sandwich market for boxes, executive seats etc, reducing income forecasts.

Finally, and I am not being political here, Brexit means that any major construction project has much more uncertainty about costs and labour shortages now than in the past. How much will steel cost next year for example.

So, even if Max's circumstances have not changed, the potential risks and costs may well have increased a lot, leading to the change of heart.

Edited to say that I have just seen the point about transfer fee inflation, and I agree that must also have been an important factor.
 
Chubby_Cherry said:
All the talk of a new Stadium, let's remind ourselves that Peak6 wanted to build a venue, useable all year round, so that profit streams are maximised and the new stadium is more viable.
They weren't talking about just increased revenue by doubling the number of seats available, but by providing an all year round facility.
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That's why I don't think peak 6 are happy with things. There is no way they are interested in throwing money at our existing stadium.
 
red_house said:
Fair player Roger - devils advocate here

Everyone is assuming we need a return on a new stadium and academy and its critical because thats what businesses do etc .

Do none of the experts on here not think that Max would have known that? I cant imagine he suddenly woke up and thought 'I won't get 8% return 'so cancel it please. Is he that stupid ?

My guess is he's sat down with Eddie and decided to Invest in the playing side first and foremost - I think its that simple.
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Add to that these are young men with different skill sets not new builds.
 
Sorry Roger said:
Any return on investment in an academy is far from certain. Apart from the capital expenditure Southampton spend several million a year to run their academy and it hasn't produced a decent player in years. James Ward Prowse being the only current example I can think of. And that's the only Cat 1 Academy for miles around able to attract talent by telling kids' parents that their little Josh could be the next Gareth Bale or Oxlade-Chamberlain.

I am not saying an improved academy and dedicated new training ground is not worth doing. I would like to see both. Just that an academy is not guaranteed to make money.
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I can think of a lot more that are the same age or younger than Ward Prowse to be fair:
Luke Shaw
Callum Chambers
Targett


Doesn't seem to be much coming through the last few years but then there weren't many decent players coming through after Bale, Walcott, lallana until OX etc came through 3-4 years later.
 
danafcb1 said:
I can think of a lot more that are the same age or younger than Ward Prowse to be fair:
Luke Shaw
Callum Chambers
Targett


Doesn't seem to be much coming through the last few years but then there weren't many decent players coming through after Bale, Walcott, lallana until OX etc came through 3-4 years later.
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Looking on their forum they don't seem to rate Ward-Prowse - he is described on one thread as "Championship at best".
 
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