Did JT do a good job?

SlowDownDerek said:
See my other answer on Begovic. What were you saying about him pre season?

You honestly thing Anthony and Zemura we at the same level last season as they are this? With another year training with the first team and getting chances here and there? Honestly?

So are you saying that injured players shouldn't be included in squads? You realise that JTs squad had shitloads of injuries right?
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I’m saying that when comparing JT and SP respective performances the fact that SP has not had our best player available for the majority of the season should be taken into consideration.
From what I saw of Anthony last season he looked more than ready yes, both will have been training with the first team for a while now. I don’t believe an extra year of training and no game will have made them significantly better no. Both looked more than capable in their limited minutes.
I wanted Begovic gone last summer, he proved me wrong. What does that have to do with this argument? He was our best player last season and him not being here makes us weaker in that position.
 
SlowDownDerek said:
Just for fun I had a quick look to see your pre-season opinions on how good Begovic was.





Didn't sound like you thought much of him until JT was his manager.
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So you attribute the vast improvement in Begovic to JT? Lol he was fire until last season but significantly improved. That adds nothing to the argument, he WAS our player of the season, regardless of what I thought of him.
 
even if Parker had king in the squad it wouldn't change the fact that in his eyes he was too good for us and was not going to risk getting injured in his last year of contract.
I agree a fully committed king would of got us a few extra points but when was the last time we had a fully committed king?
 
Neil Dawson said:
It’s interesting, and all about opinions but I don’t think this years squad is stronger. I’d say it’s same standard but with one player that shouldn’t have been at this level last year who bailed both JT and Woody out continually with his brilliance. Other than that Cahill and Cook are similar, King is better than Lowe, Zemura better than Rico…I think the squad LOOK better this year I agree with that but that’s down to decent management rather than personnel in my opinion.
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I see you've abandoned your 'performances are more important than points' rhetoric this season Neil.
 
Waz afcb said:
I’m saying that when comparing JT and SP respective performances the fact that SP has not had our best player available for the majority of the season should be taken into consideration.
From what I saw of Anthony last season he looked more than ready yes, both will have been training with the first team for a while now. I don’t believe an extra year of training and no game will have made them significantly better no. Both looked more than capable in their limited minutes.
I wanted Begovic gone last summer, he proved me wrong. What does that have to do with this argument? He was our best player last season and him not being here makes us weaker in that position.
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Waz afcb said:
So you attribute the vast improvement in Begovic to JT? Lol he was fire until last season but significantly improved. That adds nothing to the argument, he WAS our player of the season, regardless of what I thought of him.
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Of course it's relevant to the argument about which squad is better. You, and many others clearly didn't rate Begovic yet under Tindall he had his best ever season for us. Before both last season and this goalkeeper was arguably our weakest position.

You don't think an extra year's training with the first team makes a difference to youth players? By that logic they were ready the year before that, and the one before that.
 
Neil Dawson said:
Still getting picked in the top flight and internationally though…maybe those managers are clueless.
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Are you saying King should have played more last season? He was exactly the same as Fraser didn't want to be there and wasn't really part of the squad. I'm sure in the parallel universes you make up to prove your points that under Parker he would have been an absolute world beater but in the real world he was someone who wasn't really part if the squad and had to go.
 
The way I look at it. Who from last years squad that wasn’t here this year would get in that side… Begovic and Danjuma.

Who from this years squad that wasn’t here last year would get in that side
Cahill (definitely)and Christie (debate v Brooks but for me would as he did today)

Pretty even Stevens.

All the other points about injuries and youth team players getting better (both were far from youth team btw) apply to both seasons (I don’t think Parker joined planning to play Ibsen Rossi against West Brom)
 
Neil Dawson said:
And you deduce this from that paragraph how….
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I'm just bemused that you think a.we 'LOOK' Better than last year and b. It's down to good management.
I mean do we look any better than at this stage last season? or even under Woody towards the end of the season?.... really?
Do you think the way Parker handled that second half was good management?
We're top of the league and as fantastic as that is nobody can really say we've played well.
 
Neil Dawson said:
The way I look at it. Who from last years squad that wasn’t here this year would get in that side… Begovic and Danjuma.

Who from this years squad that wasn’t here last year would get in that side
Cahill (definitely)and Christie (debate v Brooks but for me would as he did today)

Pretty even Stevens.

All the other points about injuries and youth team players getting better (both were far from youth team btw) apply to both seasons (I don’t think Parker joined planning to play Ibsen Rossi against West Brom)
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Pearson. Then there's the kids.
 
SlowDownDerek said:
Of course it's relevant to the argument about which squad is better. You, and many others clearly didn't rate Begovic yet under Tindall he had his best ever season for us. Before both last season and this goalkeeper was arguably our weakest position.

You don't think an extra year's training with the first team makes a difference to youth players? By that logic they were ready the year before that, and the one before that.
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What does the fact that I didn’t rate him have to with his overall ability. You are using a singular opinion to claim that losing Begovic hasn’t weakened us despite the fact he was our player of the season. It’s a bit of bizarre logic in all honesty.
re Anthony and Zemura we will never know for sure, but in their limited appearances last season Zemura was one of our better players vs Palace and at wing back vs Oldham, and Anthony completely swung the game in our direction with his impact at home vs Preston. It may look like I’m picking and choosing here, but the reality is that the appearances I’ve noted were virtually their only substantial competitive minutes on the pitch. They both looked more than up to it, although I will admit I did not expect JZ to reach these levels yet. So no I’m not simply saying they were ready without any substance behind it, I’m using their time on the pitch last season to make the point that they WERE ready. JZ would have thrived as a wing back under JT, he chose not to play him.
 
Waz afcb said:
What does the fact that I didn’t rate him have to with his overall ability. You are using a singular opinion to claim that losing Begovic hasn’t weakened us despite the fact he was our player of the season. It’s a bit of bizarre logic in all honesty.
re Anthony and Zemura we will never know for sure, but in their limited appearances last season Zemura was one of our better players vs Palace and at wing back vs Oldham, and Anthony completely swung the game in our direction with his impact at home vs Preston. It may look like I’m picking and choosing here, but the reality is that the appearances I’ve noted were virtually their only substantial competitive minutes on the pitch. They both looked more than up to it, although I will admit I did not expect JZ to reach these levels yet. So no I’m not simply saying they were ready without any substance behind it, I’m using their time on the pitch last season to make the point that they WERE ready. JZ would have thrived as a wing back under JT, he chose not to play him.
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It wasn't an isolated opinion about Begovic, go look at the thread. There was hardly anyone who didn't want rid of him. I was one of the few saying we should give him a go but even I was saying GK was our weakest position - like everyone is saying now. Travers could also go on to have a great season then people will re-evaluate their opinion on the strength of our squad after the event just like you've done with Begovic.
 
Topfarrier said:
I'm just bemused that you think a.we 'LOOK' Better than last year and b. It's down to good management.
I mean do we look any better than at this stage last season? or even under Woody towards the end of the season?.... really?
Do you think the way Parker handled that second half was good management?
We're top of the league and as fantastic as that is nobody can really say we've played well.
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I’d say that if we’re comparing the start this season to last then the difference so far is:
-under SP in every game bar perhaps Hull we have had a spell/spells where we have looked like a very good team. However there has not been one complete ninety minute performance yet.
-under JT we had a few more complete ninety minute performances at this stage in fairness (Coventry away and Norwich at home were very good in particular) to him, however we also had a few games where we did not function effectively as a team at all and it was not really clear what he was trying to do tactically, we were very fortunate that individual quality dug us out in these games.
I personally think that when comparing the overall starts that JT and SP made that there’s not a lot in it at this stage. Too early to judge SP yet.
 
SlowDownDerek said:
Are you saying King should have played more last season? He was exactly the same as Fraser didn't want to be there and wasn't really part of the squad. I'm sure in the parallel universes you make up to prove your points that under Parker he would have been an absolute world beater but in the real world he was someone who wasn't really part if the squad and had to go.
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Remember I’m arguing about a squad on paper. King is a better player than Jamal Lowe. Offer them to 100 managers and 99 will take King. This is why he is starting in the premier league and for a European nation up front and Lowe can’t even get in a championship side.

Would Parker have got a tune out of him? Neither of us know. As you pointed out nobody thought JT would get a tune out of Begovic but by god he did.
 
SlowDownDerek said:
It wasn't an isolated opinion about Begovic, go look at the thread. There was hardly anyone who didn't want rid of him. I was one of the few saying we should give him a go but even I was saying GK was our weakest position - like everyone is saying now. Travers could also go on to have a great season then people will re-evaluate their opinion on the strength of our squad after the event just like you've done with Begovic.
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If Travers wins our player of the season like Bego did then yes I will hold my hands up, but at this stage it’s pretty obvious to me that he’s a downgrade at this moment in time. No disrespect intended to him, he’s done well considering it’s his first real spell in the side. Begovic was just unreal last season though.
 
Neil Dawson said:
Remember I’m arguing about a squad on paper. King is a better player than Jamal Lowe. Offer them to 100 managers and 99 will take King. This is why he is starting in the premier league and for a European nation up front and Lowe can’t even get in a championship side.

Would Parker have got a tune out of him? Neither of us know. As you pointed out nobody thought JT would get a tune out of Begovic but by god he did.
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Tbf King is starting in the Prem more because Watford’s other striker options include the likes of Ashley Fletcher lol
 
Waz afcb said:
I’d say that if we’re comparing the start this season to last then the difference so far is:
-under SP in every game bar perhaps Hull we have had a spell/spells where we have looked like a very good team. However there has not been one complete ninety minute performance yet.
-under JT we had a few more complete ninety minute performances at this stage in fairness (Coventry away and Norwich at home were very good in particular) to him, however we also had a few games where we did not function effectively as a team at all and it was not really clear what he was trying to do tactically, we were very fortunate that individual quality dug us out in these games.
I personally think that when comparing the overall starts that JT and SP made that there’s not a lot in it at this stage. Too early to judge SP yet.
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Fair enough.....what do you think we were trying to do tactically in that second half today?....we didn't have a single shot!.....I mean was it clear to anyone else because I didn't have a clue what we were trying to do.
 
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