Non - Brexit

If another vote was organised...no one will know exactly what for because they won't be told in exact terms...only what some civil servants knock up in a hurry under the control of those that tell us lies week in week out...worded in such a way as to confuse the less educated of our mass.......nothing in our present constitution is Open enough for there to be proper representation of the people's Will....nothing. Those in control want to keep it in their control and carry on scrapping between themselves with no meaningful input from the 'peasants'. ALL the main Parties are the same on that score!
We pick up f#cking corn that falls off the back of the wagon!
 
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Druss_the_Legend said:
What, you mean those votes we always re-run, some even annually? Nice argument.

Next you'll be pretending the 2016 vote was the first vote on this subject so you dont have to accept that it was already the second vote and can have a stance that we shouldnt have a second third. Oh wait....
Click to expand...

A third in 40 years time then, agreed?
 
Druss_the_Legend said:
What, you mean those votes we always re-run, some even annually? Nice argument.

Next you'll be pretending the 2016 vote was the first vote on this subject so you dont have to accept that it was already the second vote and can have a stance that we shouldnt have a second third. Oh wait....
Click to expand...

I'm delighted you mentioned the 1975 referendum. Thank you.

43 years ago people in the UK were asked to decide if they wanted to continue being part of the Common Market, a trading group of nine European countries.

Since then there have been a series of significant European treaties signed;

TREVI
The Single European Act
Greenland
Schengen
Maastricht
Amsterdam
Nice
Lisbon
The Protocol on European Parliament seats
The TFEU ESM Amendment
The Irish Protocol on the Lisbon Treaty
Plus six, (yes six!), different Treaties of Accession


All these treaties have completely changed the direction and purposes of the ECSC/EEC/EC/EU.

The UK joined the EC, a collective name for the European Coal and Steel Community, the European Economic Community and the European Atomic Energy Community.

The referendum in 1975 was about stronger trading between nine countries. There was nothing in that about the free movement of people in Europe, a single European currency, expanding the group from 9 to 28 nations, nor the EU's future plans to remove further sovereign powers, create a single European border force (crushed just recently), to create a single European army, and so on.

Of course, being a huge Europhile you're completely across all of this and just how much and how often the ECSC/EEC/EC/EU. has changed and rearranged things in its unending power grab.

To compare the referendums of 1975 and 2016 is spectacularly naive.

There are 43 years, 17 treaties, 19 countries, three names, and a single currency's worth of changes to be considered.

But weirdly you think the 1975 and 2016 referendums are similar or proportional. Nice argument.
 
AFCB Lost in Brum said:
I'm delighted you mentioned the 1975 referendum. Thank you.

43 years ago people in the UK were asked to decide if they wanted to continue being part of the Common Market, a trading group of nine European countries.

Since then there have been a series of significant European treaties signed;

TREVI
The Single European Act
Greenland
Schengen
Maastricht
Amsterdam
Nice
Lisbon
The Protocol on European Parliament seats
The TFEU ESM Amendment
The Irish Protocol on the Lisbon Treaty
Plus six, (yes six!), different Treaties of Accession


All these treaties have completely changed the direction and purposes of the ECSC/EEC/EC/EU.

The UK joined the EC, a collective name for the European Coal and Steel Community, the European Economic Community and the European Atomic Energy Community.

The referendum in 1975 was about stronger trading between nine countries. There was nothing in that about the free movement of people in Europe, a single European currency, expanding the group from 9 to 28 nations, nor the EU's future plans to remove further sovereign powers, create a single European border force (crushed just recently), to create a single European army, and so on.

Of course, being a huge Europhile you're completely across all of this and just how much and how often the ECSC/EEC/EC/EU. has changed and rearranged things in its unending power grab.

To compare the referendums of 1975 and 2016 is spectacularly naive.

There are 43 years, 17 treaties, 19 countries, three names, and a single currency's worth of changes to be considered.

But weirdly you think the 1975 and 2016 referendums are similar or proportional. Nice argument.
Click to expand...

Couldn't have put it better myself, 10/10 :clap:
 
AFCB Lost in Brum said:
I'm delighted you mentioned the 1975 referendum. Thank you.

43 years ago people in the UK were asked to decide if they wanted to continue being part of the Common Market, a trading group of nine European countries.

Since then there have been a series of significant European treaties signed;

TREVI
The Single European Act
Greenland
Schengen
Maastricht
Amsterdam
Nice
Lisbon
The Protocol on European Parliament seats
The TFEU ESM Amendment
The Irish Protocol on the Lisbon Treaty
Plus six, (yes six!), different Treaties of Accession


All these treaties have completely changed the direction and purposes of the ECSC/EEC/EC/EU.

The UK joined the EC, a collective name for the European Coal and Steel Community, the European Economic Community and the European Atomic Energy Community.

The referendum in 1975 was about stronger trading between nine countries. There was nothing in that about the free movement of people in Europe, a single European currency, expanding the group from 9 to 28 nations, nor the EU's future plans to remove further sovereign powers, create a single European border force (crushed just recently), to create a single European army, and so on.

Of course, being a huge Europhile you're completely across all of this and just how much and how often the ECSC/EEC/EC/EU. has changed and rearranged things in its unending power grab.

To compare the referendums of 1975 and 2016 is spectacularly naive.

There are 43 years, 17 treaties, 19 countries, three names, and a single currency's worth of changes to be considered.

But weirdly you think the 1975 and 2016 referendums are similar or proportional. Nice argument.
Click to expand...

How Ted Heath lied to the electorate in 1970/1972/1973

In 1972, Heath was afraid to hold a Referendum, because there was huge antipathy to the Common Market at that time. (2 to 1). So without holding the requisite Referendum, he signed the European Communities Bill, making us part of the Common Market that later became the EU.

Vernon Cole says: “In 1972, when Heath decided to take Britain into the Common Market, he used Parliament’s legal sovereignty to deny and permanently limit the political sovereignty of the electorate. Heath and Parliament changed the basic rules and they did not have the right (legal or moral) to do that. The 1972 European Communities Bill wasn’t just another Act of Parliament. Heath’s Bill used Parliament’s legal sovereignty, and status as representative of the electorate, to deny the fundamental rights of the electorate.

In an attempt to make our membership legal, Harold Wilson held a “retrospective Referendum”, but according to many British constitutional experts, this referendum was also illegal.

Never doubt the willingness of career politicians to enforce their own personal views on the electorate.

Why there is no need to have a full time legislative body.
'....So, they decided to make the Legislature a part-time Legislature, because they wanted regular folk to come in and run our state government and not give people a chance to come in, be entrenched, be here year-round and pass more and more bills year ’round. .....'

You do all understand that Members of Parliament and the European Commission are just rule-makers? They don't 'run the country/EU'; those highly paid, thieving, good-for-nothing, work-shy, snout-in-trough, career politicians, only exist to make rules for the rest of us to obey. If they were all magically droppped into the heart of the sun tomorrow and everybody carried on doing exactly what they did yesterday, still the world would continue and function. The only difference would be the bottom line would marginally improve, as the expenses for the subsidised bars in the Palace of Westminster vanished and the restaurants and bars in Brussels and Strasbourg would sink as their profits plummet, as the gravy-train stopped flowing.

I'll get off the fence over this issue soon.
 
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Last night on TV, before and after the vote and discussing what might happen, this was mentioned.

Now T M has said she will not stand at the next election, it might change the mind of some who were going to vote for her.

After the vote, she probably got a few more votes because she said she wouldn’t stand at the next election.
 
Owen Jones (4th generation socialist- his grandfather was a 'real' communist) is giving it some welly now...little spunker!
How to live on Planet Left! Hasn't done a days work in his effing life and telling people how to live and work theirs!!
F##k sake....Owen....if your going to f##k a pig....get on with it and stop running around with the chickens!
 
billythekid said:
Last night on TV, before and after the vote and discussing what might happen, this was mentioned.

Now T M has said she will not stand at the next election, it might change the mind of some who were going to vote for her.

After the vote, she probably got a few more votes because she said she wouldn’t stand at the next election.
Click to expand...

To get an idea of Theresa May, have a read of Fall Out: A Year of Political Mayhem

If you are inclined to read it the preceding book, All Out War: The Full Story of Brexit is also a good read.

Both are available from Dorset Libraries.
 
AFCB Lost in Brum said:
I'm delighted you mentioned the 1975 referendum. Thank you.

43 years ago people in the UK were asked to decide if they wanted to continue being part of the Common Market, a trading group of nine European countries.

Since then there have been a series of significant European treaties signed;

TREVI
The Single European Act
Greenland
Schengen
Maastricht
Amsterdam
Nice
Lisbon
The Protocol on European Parliament seats
The TFEU ESM Amendment
The Irish Protocol on the Lisbon Treaty
Plus six, (yes six!), different Treaties of Accession


All these treaties have completely changed the direction and purposes of the ECSC/EEC/EC/EU.

The UK joined the EC, a collective name for the European Coal and Steel Community, the European Economic Community and the European Atomic Energy Community.

The referendum in 1975 was about stronger trading between nine countries. There was nothing in that about the free movement of people in Europe, a single European currency, expanding the group from 9 to 28 nations, nor the EU's future plans to remove further sovereign powers, create a single European border force (crushed just recently), to create a single European army, and so on.

Of course, being a huge Europhile you're completely across all of this and just how much and how often the ECSC/EEC/EC/EU. has changed and rearranged things in its unending power grab.

To compare the referendums of 1975 and 2016 is spectacularly naive.

There are 43 years, 17 treaties, 19 countries, three names, and a single currency's worth of changes to be considered.

But weirdly you think the 1975 and 2016 referendums are similar or proportional. Nice argument.
Click to expand...

You mean that between votes the goal posts and information changed so we deserved another vote? Even worse would be to find out that laws were broken during the first one....

Couldn't have put it better myself. 10/10
 
Druss_the_Legend said:
The lies from the campaign have been revealed and the truth of what leaving means has become far more apparent.
Click to expand...

Not really. The alternative point of view was put across at the time. You have defined the lies and are using them to justify another vote.

The intransigence of the EU is not a fact that we have now realised it is their negotiation stance. If you're suggesting that the difficulties that the UK have encountered in negotiations is a reason to have another vote you're effectively handing power to the EU to circumvent the vote using an intransigent negotiating stance. They can do this because they are not directly accountable to voters. It then becomes a foregone conclusion that the UK actually doesn't have the power to leave the EU if the EU doesn't want it to. This is really dangerous.
 
Druss_the_Legend said:
The lies from the campaign have been revealed and the truth of what leaving means has become far more apparent.
Click to expand...

The only truth we've ascertained is that our Government couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery but we kind of knew that.

That said everything will be blamed on Brexit, from global warming to the price of bread. Obviously you will spin it for all its worth whether its true or not.
 
red_house said:
The only truth we've ascertained is that our Government couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery but we kind of knew that.

That said everything will be blamed on Brexit, from global warming to the price of bread. Obviously you will spin it for all its worth whether its true or not.
Click to expand...


What same way as every little thing we didn't like about life pre referendum was blamed on the EU?


I rather miss those days when the EU was responsible for screwing up the country, currently we're having to rely on our own politicians to do the job.

But to be fair, they're making a real fist of it.
 
This country will not be dictated to by anyone.....we've had all that s##t from the Romans, Vikings, Normans and attempts by The Kaiser and Schicklegrubers boy to emulate them........no more will this Island take s##t from over the channel......No.....we are not having it from paper planes either! B#llocks are we !
Its about time people started respecting what our previous generations fought for and man up to these paper pushing weasals!
We only wanted to be in a ' common market' ....not to be Ruled!!! End of! For Christ sake Educate your kids on this!
 
SlowDownDerek said:
This is the minimum requirement for a second referendum as far as I'm concerned.
Click to expand...

Problem, IMHO, is that a General Election is about far more than Brexit. Granted, Brexit (or otherwise) will define many issues to be dealt with over the next few years.
In the last election, there were (and still are) a lot of people opposed to Brexit, but the Lib Dems still could not make any electoral headway off the back of a "remain" manifesto for other reasons originating from chiefly their coalition with the Tories.

The next election will not happen until 2022 unless the government falls. That will come far too late for the country to come to a different view over Brexit... we will have left three years before. Re-joining would mean the Euro and Shengen, and none of the opt-outs we currently enjoy and I think it is very unlikely we would vote to re-join under those circumstances.
 
Until quite recently I hoped that we would have a second referendum to then vote to stay in. For all sorts of reasons I honestly don't think that's a good idea now.
There's such a strong undercurrent of hatred towards all things E.U. now that I think that if we can get a satisfactory deal to leave in an orderly way I think we should - I'm not sure the current deal is though.

Of concern is all the other things that aren't being sorted whilst this mess is being 'sorted' out - I use that term loosely!
 
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