Gavin Kilkenny

Seems a pretty sh*t loan move if you ask me... His career really seems to have stalled this last couple of years, just at a point when he really should be forging it. I wondering if selling him now would be best for all parties concerned...

Obviously massively lacking in game time here, but thought he was largely anonymous when he came on against Swansea. I get all the mitigating factors like lack of minutes and we were 5-0 up and we took our foot completely off the gas in the second half, but when these guys get these opportunities you want them to really go and grab it... I am not sure Kilkenny did anywhere enough to impress Iraola in that showing...

Still young though so maybe there is time for him to prove himself. His last loan and Stoke was a bit of a sh*tshow though...
 
SteveJonesLegend said:
Seems a pretty sh*t loan move if you ask me... His career really seems to have stalled this last couple of years, just at a point when he really should be forging it. I wondering if selling him now would be best for all parties concerned...

Obviously massively lacking in game time here, but thought he was largely anonymous when he came on against Swansea. I get all the mitigating factors like lack of minutes and we were 5-0 up and we took our foot completely off the gas in the second half, but when these guys get these opportunities you want them to really go and grab it... I am not sure Kilkenny did anywhere enough to impress Iraola in that showing...

Still young though so maybe there is time for him to prove himself. His last loan and Stoke was a bit of a sh*tshow though...
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His last loan was Charlton after Stoke and he failed to make the squads for a poor L1 team so not sure we can expect more than a fleetwood level team.
 
If he is going and possibly Billing as well. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a player of at least Billings experience and standard come in on loan, with an obligation to buy clause.
 
borisatha said:
If he is going and possibly Billing as well. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a player of at least Billings experience and standard come in on loan, with an obligation to buy clause.
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Absolutely. Unless Adams returning soon, leaves us with 3 cm's. Unless AI is going to work miracles again and convert Radu or Travers to CM :)

I'm very confident we'll sign a new player or two by the end of the window.
 
The problem with Kilkenny is what we knew all along, his size, his strength, how he can mix it etc.

His quality with the ball has never been in question, range of passing, vision has always been top level.

With that in mind you think the top tiers would suit him best, knowing the physicality of the lower leagues and the pitches, but the top levels are now full of pace and athletes.
 
DJ said:
The problem with Kilkenny is what we knew all along, his size, his strength, how he can mix it etc.

His quality with the ball has never been in question, range of passing, vision has always been top level.

With that in mind you think the top tiers would suit him best, knowing the physicality of the lower leagues and the pitches, but the top levels are now full of pace and athletes.
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Dont think he's particularly weak tbh. Not afraid to get stuck in either.

He's athletic, strong enough for it not to be an issue in the modern game. Plenty of more fragile and or slighter/smaller players who've done very well, at all levels.

Not sure what it is, but something clearly a miss/letting him down at present.
 
To add, what with modern diets/strength training programs. It wouldnt be difficult to get someones physical strength up to acceptable level.

Any man in his teens/early 20's would easily be up to decent strength level.... likely in 6 months max imo. Maybe not if they were an american football linebacker or wanting to be a pro bodybuilder/powerlifter, but it would be walk in the park for football levels... for a fit, healthy young pro footballer with coaches and routine/diet advice and supervision.
 
MB1980 said:
To add, what with modern diets/strength training programs. It wouldnt be difficult to get someones physical strength up to acceptable level.

Any man in his teens/early 20's would easily be up to decent strength level.... likely in 6 months max imo. Maybe not if they were an american football linebacker or wanting to be a pro bodybuilder/powerlifter, but it would be walk in the park for football levels... for a fit, healthy young pro footballer with coaches and routine/diet advice and supervision.
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Pro football starts in non-league, elite football is something very different. Its nuts when you think about it but we're around the top 50 best and richest teams in the world so we're looking for players who are around the top 500 in the entire world.

Pitman was a class finisher arguably the best in our history but athletically wasn't the best. If it was just 6 months in the gym to get him travelling10km and performing a dozen 30km/h sprints a match let alone jumping a meter off the ground and holding his own against guys who could probably bench press about 100KG I think we'd probably have made the effort to do it.
 
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Kudos said:
Pro football starts in non-league, elite football is something very different. Its nuts when you think about it but we're around the top 50 best and richest teams in the world so we're looking for players who are around the top 500 in the entire world.

Pitman was a class finisher arguably the best in our history but athletically wasn't the best. If it was just 6 months in the gym to get him travelling10km and performing a dozen 30km/h sprints a match let alone jumping a meter off the ground and holding his own against guys who could probably bench press about 100KG I think we'd probably have made the effort to do it.
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Sprinting, jumping etc is different to strength.

You can certainly improve them, but only marginally.

You don't need to be exceptionally strong to be a footballer. As in strong enough to not get brushed off by most other players with ease.

If Kilkenny has technical attributes, mentality at decent enough level, but is physically weak... 6 months or so with more focus on strength training would absolutely have him at a decent enough level... from my experience of strength training in gyms for 25 odd years.

Hell, I witnessed it with myself. Naturally tall, slender, long limbs etc. Weak as kitten in mid teens, to be vastly stronger than pretty much everyone I played against in 11 a side, 5 a side by early 20's. Yes it isn't pro football, but I'm certain I'm not getting brushed off the ball by any pro footballer... no doubt I would by their balance (and my lack of...), more nouse, cleverness/experience... but not by brute strength.,

Most men experience huge gains in strength from base level in first 6 months to a year of training with weights, before things slow down and you have to consider training plans, diet more. As in going from dumbell pressing say 10kg to mid 20's with little thought to implementing proper decent diet. Longer you train, harder it is to keep gaining, getting stronger... at least on the initial trajectory.

As I say, if Kilkenny has all the other ingredients, but is that limited by his strength, its very hard to believe he wouldn't buy in to recommendations from club fitness experts and put a bit more focus into it.

TBH if he was that weak and not close to requisite strength, he wouldnt have last this long at us, or likely even been offered a contract as a youth player.

Some people are naturally stronger for sure, but to make grade as foootballer you really dont need to be gentically stronger than everyone imo...as you do to be a rugby or american footballer. And you dont need to make yourself that strong to have a decent career, as long as good enough across other attributes.
 
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MB1980 said:
Sprinting, jumping etc is different to strength.

You can certainly improve them, but only marginally.

You don't need to be exceptionally strong to be a footballer. As in strong enough to not get brushed off by most other players with ease.

If Kilkenny has technical attributes, mentality at decent enough level, but is physically weak... 6 months or so with more focus on strength training would absolutely have him at a decent enough level... from my experience of strength training in gyms for 25 odd years.

Hell, I witnessed it with myself. Naturally tall, slender, long limbs etc. Weak as kitten in mid teens, to be vastly stronger than pretty much everyone I played against in 11 a side, 5 a side by early 20's. Yes it isn't pro football, but I'm certain I'm not getting brushed off the ball by any pro footballer... no doubt I would by their balance (and my lack of...), more nouse, cleverness/experience... but not by brute strength.,

Most men experience huge gains in strength from base level in first 6 months to a year of training with weights, before things slow down and you have to consider training plans, diet more. As in going from dumbell pressing say 10kg to mid 20's with little thought to implementing proper decent diet. Longer you train, harder it is to keep gaining, getting stronger... at least on the initial trajectory.

As I say, if Kilkenny has all the other ingredients, but is that limited by his strength, its very hard to believe he wouldn't buy in to recommendations from club fitness experts and put a bit more focus into it.

TBH if he was that weak and not close to requisite strength, he wouldnt have last this long at us, or likely even been offered a contract as a youth player.

Some people are naturally stronger for sure, but to make grade as foootballer you really dont need to be gentically stronger than everyone imo...as you do to be a rugby or american footballer. And you dont need to make yourself that strong to have a decent career, as long as good enough across other attributes.
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I think it was Alex Scott who said after the cup game that Gav works really hard in training and is always in the gym. Apparently the two of them are mates and he was chuffed that Gav got some minutes at the end of the game.
So I would imagine that he has been working on building up his strength for quite a while now, judging by that statement.

But clearly he is a long way from being a starter here at the moment and he is at an age where he needs to be playing. A loan move seems to be the best thing for his career right now. We'll keep an eye on his development until the summer, presumably, and then decide with him the best course of action beyond that.
It wouldn't surprise me if he then leaves the club permanently, because unless we are in the Championship, I don't see us actually needing him.

It's a shame because should we ever find ourselves back in the Championship, I think we'd regret having let him go, but we can't hoard players just to cover every eventuality, can we ?

I wish him well, wherever he ends up. Seems like a great lad and you could never criticise his work ethic. Hopefully he can kick on now and reach his full potential, whatever that may be.
 
MB1980 said:
Sprinting, jumping etc is different to strength.

You can certainly improve them, but only marginally.

You don't need to be exceptionally strong to be a footballer. As in strong enough to not get brushed off by most other players with ease.

If Kilkenny has technical attributes, mentality at decent enough level, but is physically weak... 6 months or so with more focus on strength training would absolutely have him at a decent enough level... from my experience of strength training in gyms for 25 odd years.

Hell, I witnessed it with myself. Naturally tall, slender, long limbs etc. Weak as kitten in mid teens, to be vastly stronger than pretty much everyone I played against in 11 a side, 5 a side by early 20's. Yes it isn't pro football, but I'm certain I'm not getting brushed off the ball by any pro footballer... no doubt I would be their balance, more nouse, cleverness/experience... but not by brute strength.,

Most men experience huge gains in strength from base level in first 6 months to a year of training with weights, before things slow down and you have to consider training plans, diet more. As in going from dumbell pressing say 10kg to mid 20's with little thought to implementing proper decent diet. Longer you train, harder it is to keep gaining, getting stronger... at least on the initial trajectory.

As I say, if Kilkenny has all the other ingredients, but is that limited by his strength, its very hard to believe he wouldn't buy in to recommendations from club fitness experts and put a bit more focus into it.

TBH if he was that weak and not close to requisite strength, he wouldnt have last this long at us, or likely even been offered a contract as a youth player.
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I take your point but you're comparing amateur football with elite football.

You're not saying it explicitly but it you're implying that Kilkenny has not trained at all thus far in career by suggesting some newbie gains would catapult him to a level where he was competitive at an elite athlete level.

It seems more likely to me that he is already training hard but hitting a plateau.

We're holding on to him in the same way we did Surridge, Mahoney and Simpson before him because he's a youth product on the fringe of the team but I don't see him as anywhere near the grade.
 
Kudos said:
I take your point but you're comparing amateur football with elite football.

You're not saying it explicitly but it you're implying that Kilkenny has not trained at all thus far in career by suggesting some newbie gains would catapult him to a level where he was competitive at an elite athlete level.

It seems more likely to me that he is already training hard but hitting a plateau.

We're holding on to him in the same way we did Surridge, Mahoney and Simpson before him because he's a youth product on the fringe of the team but I don't see him as anywhere near the grade.
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No I'm saying physical strength is extremely unlikely to be his issue here. As the requisite strength required to be an effective top level football is not that high.

Professional footballers really aren't that strong in my world. Stronger than bloke who works in an office and plays 5 a side once week and ottherwise does nothing apart from eat a standard (cr4p..) western diet... most definitely. But a fairly unimpressive level of strength for people who lift weights regularly is fine for most positions. Definitely midfield.

It wouldn't take much work at all to address it if was/had been an issue earlier for him.

Something his holding him back for sure. I'm just pretty confident from my 20 odd years in gyms, witnessing others and from tones of research/reading on the subject, that if he's that weak it can be addressed through a basic committment to weights and diet for a few months... I'm not talking about shuvelling 5000 cals down his throat either. Kind of standard footballers diet would yield results, nothing extreme.

Think its safe to assume he's reasonably athletic/gifted gentically for physical sports as wouldn't have made it this far.

I've read about some footballers that do lift eye-browing raising heavy weights on big lifts. Sometimes no doubt true as there are bound to be extremely gited strength wise people in football that are naturally very strong, but thats not normal at all across all players ... that said, I always reserve judgement when I hear anyone claim how much they squat. As some peoples idea of a squat is descending around 6 inches and counting it as **************** to ground ;). I've seen Bournemouth players in the gym before, from lower league days, and most weren't moving weights not remotely impressive at all TBH over prolonged periods.

But yes I agree, this ship has sailed. Very unlikely someone struggling in League 1 or going to bottom of the table side heading into mid 20's having barely played, is likely to make the grade as a PL player for one reason or another,.
 
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MB1980 said:
No I'm saying physical strength is extremely unlikely to be his issue here. As the requisite strength required to be an effective top level football is not that high.

Professional footballers really aren't that strong in my world. Stronger than bloke who works in an office and plays 5 a side once week and ottherwise does nothing apart from eat a standard (cr4p..) western diet... most definitely. But a fairly unimpressive level of strength for people who lift weights regularly is fine for most positions. Definitely midfield.

It wouldn't take much work at all to address it if was/had been an issue earlier for him.

Something his holding him back for sure. I'm just pretty confident from my 20 odd years in gyms, witnessing others and from tones of research/reading on the subject, that if he's that weak it can be addressed through a basic committment to weights and diet for a few months... I'm not talking about shuvelling 5000 cals down his throat either. Kind of standard footballers diet would yield results, nothing extreme.

Think its safe to assume he's reasonably athletic/gifted gentically for physical sports as wouldn't have made it this far.

I've read about some footballers that do lift eye-browing raising heavy weights on big lifts. Sometimes no doubt true as there are bound to be extremely gited strength wise people in football that are naturally very strong, but thats not normal at all across all players ... that said, I always reserve judgement when I hear anyone claim how much they squat. As some peoples idea of a squat is descending around 6 inches and counting it as **************** to ground ;). I've seen Bournemouth players in the gym before, from lower league days, and most weren't moving weights not remotely impressive at all TBH over prolonged periods.

But yes I agree, this ship has sailed. Very unlikely someone struggling in League 1 or going to bottom of the table side heading into mid 20's having barely played, is likely to make the grade as a PL player for one reason or another,.
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As a gym goer myself for years,i believe genetics play a role in strength and muscle size,maybe some players can only reach a certain peak,whatever they do.
 
Hillviewred said:
As a gym goer myself for years,i believe genetics play a role in strength and muscle size,maybe some players can only reach a certain peak,whatever they do.
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Absolutely. Massively plays a part. Seen people igo in not overly strong and end up competing in highish level power lifting competitions with 2 years or so. Most sit somewhere in the middle though. If you want to step on stage as a bodybuilder... yes you need decent genetics to build muscle, look a certain way.

If you want to compete at a high level of any strength based sport or activity... yes, you better have genetics predisposed to be strong, more so than most, or you won't get very far. I'm very confident that is not football - pro level or otherwise. Its more important to be athletic, have talent at being good at kicking a ball with potential to keep improving... with a fairly average level of strength. Its more supplementary once that level has been reached, rather than a requirement. Certainly for a cm.

Blokes that are still weak after period of dedicated training tend not to eat enough though. Unless they're one of the few with underlying health issues. Or constantly drinking/hungover.

Many dont have enthusiasm/discipline to stick to eating well/enough food and basically lifting things without fail for months/years on end. So just give up and say they're not 'gifted'.

If you were a pro footballer, I dont think lifting 3 times a week and eating footballers diet thats laid on a plate (literally probably) is too much of a commitment though tbh.
 
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MB1980 said:
Dont think he's particularly weak tbh. Not afraid to get stuck in either.

He's athletic, strong enough for it not to be an issue in the modern game. Plenty of more fragile and or slighter/smaller players who've done very well, at all levels.

Not sure what it is, but something clearly a miss/letting him down at present.
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He was none of the above the year we were promoted.Eddie and Parker saw something in him, Woodgate and o Neill didn't.club obviously kept him in case we relegated and let himout on loan.got injured straight away at Stoke and didn't seem to get his game back since.probably needs to move on as he needs to play
 
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