Non - Brexit

SilentWriting said:
Maybe so, but also I don't think you'll have to look far for many that would now leave with "No Deal"

On the other side of the coin, if posts are to be believed on website comments many remainers have had enough and just want some kind of exit. After 3 years of the EU messing around together with our politicians, they've seen just how far the EU will go to sabotage our exit, and have lost a lot of trust. How many remain were fence sitters and have now had enough.

Staunch Leave & Remain have dug their heals in and are far more convinced than they ever were, which is who make the most noise. Which is why we need a General Election so the rest can be heard & that's why Corbyn's running scared from the prospect, cause the Labour Leave areas have dropped him like a hot potato.
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Sounds like no one is happy, leave or remain. Do you think a second referendum should be had, with 'leave - no deal' on the ticket, along with politicians campaigning on that basis, and not saying things like 'we will get a better deal than what we have now', or 'Norway' etc like they did in 2016 ?
 
SlowDownDerek said:
Yeah, about 35% of the electorate if Brexit Party votes are anything to go by. Which is obviously not a majority and therefore not "what the country voted for".
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Everyone who voted to leave voted for a no deal as there were no options. Voting to leave meant packing our bags and saying goodbye. God forbid some of them may have changed their minds in the last 3 years. That would be an affront to democracy.
 
stanthevan said:
Everyone who voted to leave voted for a no deal as there were no options. Voting to leave meant packing our bags and saying goodbye. God forbid some of them may have changed their minds in the last 3 years. That would be an affront to democracy.
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I like how it went from leaving a political union, but remaining in it on the trade side of things like when we first joined the Euro Coal and Steel Community (or is it the EEC, cant remember), to now leaving everything in order to spend the next 10 yrs negotiating for something inferior to what we have now.
Bearing in mind what was promised by leave politicians, a no deal would be a failure. They could not achieve what they promised.
Shame, but i'm sure when its Farage's turn to see this through, we will get the 'clean brexit' which is the new vogue description now used for this mess.
 
There are snippets of truth in all our arguments...young and old.....

I wont tell my young family members they are stupid to vote Remain because they know nothing!
And I dont expect them to refer to me as a ' baby boomer' who is thick!
We all interpret from differing sources and needs.
Several members of my family have switched sides in the last month !
 
dutchcherry said:
Sounds like no one is happy, leave or remain. Do you think a second referendum should be had, with 'leave - no deal' on the ticket, along with politicians campaigning on that basis, and not saying things like 'we will get a better deal than what we have now', or 'Norway' etc like they did in 2016 ?
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There's another angle that's not being represented by any of the parties.

This will never happen but... Imagine, a party puts their hand up and says "The referendum was wrong. It was run in an undemocratic manner and because of its flaws it has pitted the country against itself. The result was never binding and should not be honoured, especially on such a small majority.

We don't propose holding another referendum because it is a complex issue that needs detailed investigation to determine what is in the best future economic and political interests of this country. It is simply impossible to expect the demographic to make an informed decision on such a pivotal issue when they are not party to many of the constraints and workings of inner and european governments and therefore what it is actually possible to negotiate. This is not being patronising, we do not ask the public do decide on other complex issues for the same reason.

We also should not be held to leave the EU by arbitrary timelines if it will be to the detriment of this country. This should not be a forever decision, we must retain the option to join or leave at any point if it is in the UK's best interests.

If you vote for us we will guarantee to do what is best for the country, whether that is in or out of the EU. We will decide this based on effective planning and management guided by industry experts. We will ask you, the people, directly what your most important issues to guide our public spending and policy making and will of course account for Brexit in all of that.

We have had 3 years of Brexit dominating every corner of political life, and now it is time that we directly focus on the things that matter to each and every one of us. It's time we use your tax money efficiently to improve the quality of everyones' lives instead of throwing it away on emergency strategies for a self inflicted situation which we have in our power to avoid."
 
Never called any Leaver 'thick'. I respect people to make a rational decision given honest facts, not lies and propaganda - but you can't gag the MSM as we all know.
 
Red Sky said:
There's another angle that's not being represented by any of the parties.

This will never happen but... Imagine, a party puts their hand up and says "The referendum was wrong. It was run in an undemocratic manner and because of its flaws it has pitted the country against itself. The result was never binding and should not be honoured, especially on such a small majority.

We don't propose holding another referendum because it is a complex issue that needs detailed investigation to determine what is in the best future economic and political interests of this country. It is simply impossible to expect the demographic to make an informed decision on such a pivotal issue when they are not party to many of the constraints and workings of inner and european governments and therefore what it is actually possible to negotiate. This is not being patronising, we do not ask the public do decide on other complex issues for the same reason.

We also should not be held to leave the EU by arbitrary timelines if it will be to the detriment of this country. This should not be a forever decision, we must retain the option to join or leave at any point if it is in the UK's best interests.

If you vote for us we will guarantee to do what is best for the country, whether that is in or out of the EU. We will decide this based on effective planning and management guided by industry experts. We will ask you, the people, directly what your most important issues to guide our public spending and policy making and will of course account for Brexit in all of that.

We have had 3 years of Brexit dominating every corner of political life, and now it is time that we directly focus on the things that matter to each and every one of us. It's time we use your tax money efficiently to improve the quality of everyones' lives instead of throwing it away on emergency strategies for a self inflicted situation which we have in our power to avoid."
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We've already got the Lib Dems are the "pretend the ref didn't happen" party.

Do you reckon the issue will just somehow go away even in the very unlikely event that this party won an election?
 
beds cherry said:
Never called any Leaver 'thick'. I respect people to make a rational decision given honest facts, not lies and propaganda - but you can't gag the MSM as we all know.
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It's a classic catch 22. If you are informed, you realise you don't have enough information to make a rational decision. If you believe you have enough information to make a rational decision, it's because you're not well informed.
 
SlowDownDerek said:
We've already got the Lib Dems are the "pretend the ref didn't happen" party.

Do you reckon the issue will just somehow go away even in the very unlikely event that this party won an election?
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But you can't just overturn the referendum without saying how you're going to address the democratic deficit. That's the issue with the Lib Dem's stance.
 
Red Sky said:
But you can't just overturn the referendum without saying how you're going to address the democratic deficit. That's the issue with the Lib Dem's stance.
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If the Lib Dems win the election running on the premise of revoking article 50.... thats somehow not a mandate enough? Thats exactly how democracy works?
 
Red Sky said:
There's another angle that's not being represented by any of the parties.

This will never happen but... Imagine, a party puts their hand up and says "The referendum was wrong. It was run in an undemocratic manner and because of its flaws it has pitted the country against itself. The result was never binding and should not be honoured, especially on such a small majority.

We don't propose holding another referendum because it is a complex issue that needs detailed investigation to determine what is in the best future economic and political interests of this country. It is simply impossible to expect the demographic to make an informed decision on such a pivotal issue when they are not party to many of the constraints and workings of inner and european governments and therefore what it is actually possible to negotiate. This is not being patronising, we do not ask the public do decide on other complex issues for the same reason.

We also should not be held to leave the EU by arbitrary timelines if it will be to the detriment of this country. This should not be a forever decision, we must retain the option to join or leave at any point if it is in the UK's best interests.

If you vote for us we will guarantee to do what is best for the country, whether that is in or out of the EU. We will decide this based on effective planning and management guided by industry experts. We will ask you, the people, directly what your most important issues to guide our public spending and policy making and will of course account for Brexit in all of that.

We have had 3 years of Brexit dominating every corner of political life, and now it is time that we directly focus on the things that matter to each and every one of us. It's time we use your tax money efficiently to improve the quality of everyones' lives instead of throwing it away on emergency strategies for a self inflicted situation which we have in our power to avoid."
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I lost interest after the first 4 words "The referendum was wrong"
 
Red Sky said:
But you can't just overturn the referendum without saying how you're going to address the democratic deficit. That's the issue with the Lib Dem's stance.
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How is the democratic deficit addressed in your approach. You're basically saying that the public don't get to decide and that 'experts' will run the country. Being a member of the EU is apparently our default whether the public like it or not.
 
wallmth said:
[QUOTE="]


Yeah it’s called bureaucracy Rob I’m sure we’ve all had to deal with it in our life’s from time to time . There there seems to be a lot of “ coulds “ and “initially‘s “ in that report and plus of course it’s the Guardian .... I’m more than happy to make a friendly wager with you that she’ll never get deported .. for a charity of your choice of course .;)
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I know you'll dismiss this article due to its 'fake' source but here is how current refugees are being treated:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ul-u-turn-over-post-brexit-funds-for-refugees
 
Druss_the_Legend said:
If the Lib Dems win the election running on the premise of revoking article 50.... thats somehow not a mandate enough? Thats exactly how democracy works?
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To an extent, but if they win it will be a narrow majority with a divided country not healed. They need to find some way of addressing it, which means looking at the reasons for the Brexit vote and addressing those. This also means emphasising that this is not a once in a lifetime vote but that the option to leave will be continually revisited and that the decision will be taken by the Government with approval by the elected Parliament.
 
SlowDownDerek said:
It wasn't how democracy worked at the last general election though was it? Otherwise Labour and Tory rebels wouldn't have blocked brexit.
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They havent blocked brexit, they have stopped a no deal brexit. More people voted for parties that ruled out a no deal in their manifesto than one who didnt.

The most vocal opponents of voting against Brexit in the last 3 years have ironically been the ERG of whome Mogg and Joohnson are members and voted against Brexit.
 
Druss_the_Legend said:
They havent blocked brexit, they have stopped a no deal brexit. More people voted for parties that ruled out a no deal in their manifesto than one who didnt.

The most vocal opponents of voting against Brexit in the last 3 years have ironically been the ERG of whome Mogg and Joohnson are members and voted against Brexit.
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They blocked the withdrawal agreement three times. As far as I can see it was perfectly compatible with their version of brexit... and they blocked it.
 
SlowDownDerek said:
How is the democratic deficit addressed in your approach. You're basically saying that the public don't get to decide and that 'experts' will run the country. Being a member of the EU is apparently our default whether the public like it or not.
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I'm saying that the things that people really care about (the reasons they stated they voted Brexit) i.e. immigration and greater control over laws can be addressed by being in or out of the EU.

We should be having polls on policies, not the means of achieving the policies.
 
Druss_the_Legend said:
If the Lib Dems win the election running on the premise of revoking article 50.... thats somehow not a mandate enough? Thats exactly how democracy works?
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Almost fell off my chair LOLing at the irony of this post. But yes, in principle you're absolutely right.
It's unfortunate so many MPs in the current Parliament haven't seen through the premise they stood for election on the last time out.
Perhaps we should have another election and see if we can make the Parliamentary picture any clearer.
 
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