Non - Brexit

wallmth said:
https://www.kingdomcomment.com/blog/anatomy-of-a-smear-dan-hannan

Not sure if this is relevant to what your saying but put it up anyway .

So your saying there really isn’t any incentive for the EU to try to make a deal in good faith but we “might” be able to walk away .Walk away to what ? No deal ,isn’t that already an option right now without having to hand over this pie in the sky figure of 39 billion ...this so called deal is handing every single card over to the EU for the future negotiations or am I seeing this completely wrong ? What in this deal is good for the UK or can be classed as leaving ?
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That's not really what I'm referring to although he does get that thrown at him every day. I'm referring to his support of EEA post referendum as a workable solution. There were plenty of pro-SM organisations that campaigned for leave in the referendum though as I've posted on here before.

Like I say I'm no legal expert but I just can't see what prevents the UK walking away down the line even if they sign this agreement. They wouldn't walk away to no deal but they would threaten it - both sides would have an incentive to agree a proper deal.

This deal is a transitional agreement that allows bespoke industry specific FTAs to be agreed. Not perfect but people on the extremes need to face facts that they aren't going to get exactly what they want.
 
Red Sky said:
I'm all for an extension to article which allows people to campaign based on well thought out proposals for both leave and remain. Remain does not need to be 'go back to how things were' for me, it's clear things need to change.
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No I'm saying the first referendum needs to be implemented to at least some degree before campaigning on a new referendum. If not a second referendum is doomed to failure from the start, how could anybody take it seriously?

And yes, there needs to be ten times more scrutiny on what the future of the EU looks like. The arrogance of the EU political establishment in the face of a massive voter rejection of their model is astounding. They can bleat on about lies, voter manipulation, etc. but they can't hide from the fact that their project isn't even that popular among those that voted to stay in it.
 
SlowDownDerek said:
That's great Billy but Norway aren't members of the European Union and neither are Australia so it's not exactly as clear as you suggest.
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And all that can get figured out after we leave ...it’s obviously not happening before that in anyway that’s beneficial to the UK.
Would love to see the Aussies agree to pay 39 billion for the Privilege of a trade deficit .
 
SlowDownDerek said:
No I'm saying the first referendum needs to be implemented to at least some degree before campaigning on a new referendum. If not a second referendum is doomed to failure from the start, how could anybody take it seriously?

And yes, there needs to be ten times more scrutiny on what the future of the EU looks like. The arrogance of the EU political establishment in the face of a massive voter rejection of their model is astounding. They can bleat on about lies, voter manipulation, etc. but they can't hide from the fact that their project isn't even that popular among those that voted to stay in it.
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Does it though? It wasn't legally binding and what would be the point of going through the cost and effort of leaving if we then have to renegotiate a position to rejoin (on most likely less favourable terms). Would it not just be better to leave with a plan we all agree on, or negotiate a position to remain that solves most or all of the voter's concerns?

By leaving the EU we will still be subject to many of its laws and regulations without having the same rights to decide what those laws are. By being in it we can (at least try to) control and guide the future of the european project.
 
Red Sky said:
Does it though? It wasn't legally binding and what would be the point of going through the cost and effort of leaving if we then have to renegotiate a position to rejoin (on most likely less favourable terms). Would it not just be better to leave with a plan we all agree on, or negotiate a position to remain that solves most or all of the voter's concerns?

By leaving the EU we will still be subject to many of its laws and regulations without having the same rights to decide what those laws are. By being in it we can (at least try to) control and guide the future of the european project.
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Yes it does, because people have voted for it. In my opinion the "not legally binding" argument is the weakest out there. Point us to someone before the referendum who said the referendum wouldn't be enacted, or someone who said there would be another to sort out the details a few years later.

Your post is just a rerun of pro remain arguments, that's your view and is obviously fine, but it's a view that got outvoted same as mine. You are just looking for an angle to reverse the vote.
 
Red Sky said:
Does it though? It wasn't legally binding and what would be the point of going through the cost and effort of leaving if we then have to renegotiate a position to rejoin (on most likely less favourable terms). Would it not just be better to leave with a plan we all agree on, or negotiate a position to remain that solves most or all of the voter's concerns?
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Cameron tried that. He got abuse and push back from the same people who would ultimately become the Remain campaign here, and ultimately got nowhere with the EU on it anyway. So don't go disingenuously proposing that as a solution now.
 
SlowDownDerek said:
Yes it does, because people have voted for it. In my opinion the "not legally binding" argument is the weakest out there. Point us to someone before the referendum who said the referendum wouldn't be enacted, or someone who said there would be another to sort out the details a few years later.

Your post is just a rerun of pro remain arguments, that's your view and is obviously fine, but it's a view that got outvoted same as mine. You are just looking for an angle to reverse the vote.
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The legally binding point is valid and relevant because everything that is happening right now in the negotiations, the 2 taken years to negotiate a deal that nobody wants, the very strong possibility of a damaging no deal Brexit, the potential to destabilise northern ireland, the uncertainty in the business sector . All of it is self inflicted.

We could quite easily take the pressure off and decide to leave only when we have conditions that are favourable to the electorate. To suggest that everyone who voted leave wanted out by a certain date regardless is narrow minded, and was not reflected on the ballot paper.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I am not against leaving the EU if people still truly believe it is the best thing for our country. But what I am against is leaving on the basis of the lies of 2016 and politicians making their own judgements on things which were not reflected on the voting papers.
 
The sound and fury has mainly come from the victors hiding behind the sofa, Leave means Leave will become clearer post 29 march.
 
northstandmark said:
Cameron tried that. He got abuse and push back from the same people who would ultimately become the Remain campaign here, and ultimately got nowhere with the EU on it anyway. So don't go disingenuously proposing that as a solution now.
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The EU were never going to listen until after the referendum, The whole climate has shifted and they must now listen to their member states or face collapse.
 
JIMNNINA said:
The sound and fury has mainly come from the victors hiding behind the sofa, Leave means Leave will become clearer post 29 march.
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Would you like to explain what you mean or is this just Mr antisoundbites doing his favorite thing which is ummmm soundbites .
 
Red Sky said:
The legally binding point is valid and relevant because everything that is happening right now in the negotiations, the 2 taken years to negotiate a deal that nobody wants, the very strong possibility of a damaging no deal Brexit, the potential to destabilise northern ireland, the uncertainty in the business sector . All of it is self inflicted.

We could quite easily take the pressure off and decide to leave only when we have conditions that are favourable to the electorate. To suggest that everyone who voted leave wanted out by a certain date regardless is narrow minded, and was not reflected on the ballot paper.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I am not against leaving the EU if people still truly believe it is the best thing for our country. But what I am against is leaving on the basis of the lies of 2016 and politicians making their own judgements on things which were not reflected on the voting papers.
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Please don't insult people's intelligence, you want to reverse the vote so just be honest about it.

I honestly can't see how people don't see the problem with the government asking for the public's opinion on an issue, receiving an answer, spending two years bumbling to a deliberately unsatisfactory proposed solution then telling the public that the opposite of what they voted for is in fact a better solution. Can you not see how this would potentially wreck the public's faith in a government's willingness to serve it's voters?

I'm a remain voter but I'm extremely uncomfortable with the idea that any government can just railroad the public into accepting what the government wants. The EU politicians have shown equal contempt for voters by not changing tack one bit despite their model being roundly rejected.

The legally binding point is absolutely not relevant - it is politically binding whether you or I like it or not.
 
Another Cliffhanger tonight ? Sweat ye not ! I expect Peston & Co will Ramp it, or Camp it up into nothing less than a Shakespearean Tragi - Comedy !
And when the curtain drops we all get on Google to see if means anything other than another couple of months of re-cycled Bullsh#t !
 
Red Sky said:
The EU were never going to listen until after the referendum, The whole climate has shifted and they must now listen to their member states or face collapse.
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They've not budged one bit! They haven't shown that they care for the individual people or businesses within their boundaries they are only interested in preserving their project irrespective of what the public think.
 
People in parts of France and Germany dont give a monkeys! Some, interviewed in towns over near the Alps havent the foggiest idea what its about...totally different World....happily blinded by the Sun rebounding off the snowy peaks.. " what is deez...ow you say....Brexeet ? " Likewise some in villages straddling the coast around Aberdeen.
The whole sorry shindig has been blown way out of its Barn ! Yes...a Barndance moved to the Royal Opera House !

Life will go on.....breathe and walk straight!
 
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