Non - General Election

SlowDownDerek said:
I just find it amazing that people are happy to say we should never have had a referendum... so we just blindly accept being part of an organisation that the majority don't want to be a part of. You overestimate the support for the EU among the 48% too. There are plenty of us that reluctant voted to remain as the least bad option. Don't alarm bells ring with you that there's no control over the destination of the EU? Voters can't even vote to leave the bloody thing.
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This!
 
Its crazy to think that a politician in these circumstances ...would Not employ ..Tactics of some clandestine nature...most would.
Johnsons reputation obviously precedes his present position and will raise hackles across the wider public.....but we are faced with negotiating with some equally dubious individuals in the EU....we have endured a World where the likes of the late Robert Mugabe, Trump, Putin, Kim Jung, Juncker, the hideous yet puerile madam Thatcher, Clegg and Neil Warnock have pedalled their unsavoury wares......
If we ditch Johnson.....whoever takes up the baton will have to be damn clever to succeed without skullduggery!
 
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...watching Question Time last evening I have the opinion that politicians are not really listening to others and appear open to any real debates of substance...just calling each other liars and worse. It is a shame that a poorly thought out Referendum has reduced our MP's to figures of ridicule and such blinkered thinking. The Tories are in disarray...The Labour Party is un-electable with Jeremy Corbyn as it's leader...The Lib-Dems have nailed their colours to the remainers who were in the minority of voters...The EU hasn't covered themselves with any glory either with their gusto for giving The UK a good kicking...whilst The Scots led by some kind of new Braveheart in the shape of the totally argumentative and self proporting leader Nicola Sturgeon are pushing for the break up of the Union as if they could withstand the isolation with about as much clout as Cyprus or Malta...

These are the craziest of times and I can't imagine where it will all end up...one thing is for sure it will be the working class people of this land who will bear the brunt economically and have to carry the burden of such volatile misrule of our country...
 
[QUOTE="SlowDownDerek, post: 305784, member: 2758"

I just find it amazing that people are happy to say we should never have had a referendum... so we just blindly accept being part of an organisation that the majority don't want to be a part of. You overestimate the support for the EU among the 48% too. There are plenty of us that reluctant voted to remain as the least bad option. Don't alarm bells ring with you that there's no control over the destination of the EU? Voters can't even vote to leave the bloody thing.[/QUOTE]

Trouble is - its the destination out of the EU under the Tories that's the worry - they would love the low regulation, tax haven, sweatshop American/Singapore way. I voted remain as in the EU I see it as a check on this, also due to the fact we aren't in a strong enough economic position to go it alone, so the sensible option was to remain (for me).

But that comes back to what system (economic and social) you prefer, that way or the more scandi way, that was discussed a couple of weeks ago.
 
SlowDownDerek said:
You're very one sided in your views. Very quick to praise Irish or EU politicians for sticking to their guns yet when UK politicians do that they are 'liars', 'naive' etc. I'm no jingoistic reactionary but your willingness to support their politicians over ours is odd to even me. They are all cut from the same cloth.

I just find it amazing that people are happy to say we should never have had a referendum... so we just blindly accept being part of an organisation that the majority don't want to be a part of. You overestimate the support for the EU among the 48% too. There are plenty of us that reluctant voted to remain as the least bad option. Don't alarm bells ring with you that there's no control over the destination of the EU? Voters can't even vote to leave the bloody thing.
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We should never have had a referendum held in that particular way which was confirmed (by the government's own study) to have been flawed and undemocratic on a number of levels.

Many of the people who voted leave may have been exasperated by certain aspects of the EU, but there were no voting options to try and fix this from within the EU. 'Remain' to many just meant 'the status quo'.

Other people voted leave because they blamed the EU for things that weren't even the fault of the EU. Some of those were successfully sold lies by the vote leave campaign.

Ultimately, the decision of EU membership should not be for Joe Public to decide. It's not Barry from Bognor's job to renegotiate all of the UK's trade agreements. Therefore how can he possibly know what is in our country's best interests? It is perfectly fine to take a poll on what the populus thinks are the most important issues and what they are unhappy with, but it is the govermnent's job to find the best balance and spend our hard earned bucks as best as possible. Be that in the EU or out.
 
SlowDownDerek said:
You're very one sided in your views. Very quick to praise Irish or EU politicians for sticking to their guns yet when UK politicians do that they are 'liars', 'naive' etc. I'm no jingoistic reactionary but your willingness to support their politicians over ours is odd to even me. They are all cut from the same cloth.

I just find it amazing that people are happy to say we should never have had a referendum... so we just blindly accept being part of an organisation that the majority don't want to be a part of. You overestimate the support for the EU among the 48% too. There are plenty of us that reluctant voted to remain as the least bad option. Don't alarm bells ring with you that there's no control over the destination of the EU? Voters can't even vote to leave the bloody thing.
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The Irish politicians have had this put on them by the decision of the UK, instigated by UK politicians. Anyone who sticks to their guns on something, fair play to them. I view it as many UK politicians sticking to their guns to hide the fact they had no plan or idea of how this would work, or to hide the fact that they wanted no deal all along. If they are never going to back down, which is their right, then I don't see why Irish politicians (or any other nationality) should either. At the moment they have the backing of the other 26 members, I don't see why they should not use it to their advantage. Likewise, I don't see any problem with China in their stance with the USA, having had that trade spat thrown upon them by the other side. I would not have a problem with a club digging their heels in when it comes to the price of a player that we want to buy. Its their decision and their right to do so. Club allegiance does not mean i have to despise the other club because they ask for a high price, after the player renewed his contract only a few month before, and we unsettled him via his agent and secret meetings.

I would also point out that I don't think all 52% would vote the same again if it meant severing all ties with the EU. Culturally its easy, as we have the island mentality, but economically i think many of the 52% would think again. I'm still amazed the number of farmers who voted for it. I think knowing what they know now, many would change their minds. Same for people involved in the just in time manufacturing process. To be honest if there was another vote it might be even tighter.

Alarm bells - again, you and I will not see eye to eye. I trust the fact we have a veto. If that got taken away, then hell yes I would think again about remaining but then so would all members. It works because there has to be consensus and with 27-28 members, to find that all the time on all matters will be neigh on impossible, hence i'm not afraid of even closer union because i don't think all 27 would ever agree at the same time. You can leave the EU, Art 50 allows that. It was always an unknown as no one had done it. What we are living through is the product of it being described as very easy, but in practice it is not so.
 
Red Sky said:
We should never have had a referendum held in that particular way which was confirmed (by the government's own study) to have been flawed and undemocratic on a number of levels.

Many of the people who voted leave may have been exasperated by certain aspects of the EU, but there were no voting options to try and fix this from within the EU. 'Remain' to many just meant 'the status quo'.

Other people voted leave because they blamed the EU for things that weren't even the fault of the EU. Some of those were successfully sold lies by the vote leave campaign.

Ultimately, the decision of EU membership should not be for Joe Public to decide. It's not Barry from Bognor's job to renegotiate all of the UK's trade agreements. Therefore how can he possibly know what is in our country's best interests? It is perfectly fine to take a poll on what the populus thinks are the most important issues and what they are unhappy with, but it is the govermnent's job to find the best balance and spend our hard earned bucks as best as possible. Be that in the EU or out.
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:clap:
 
dutchcherry said:
The Irish politicians have had this put on them by the decision of the UK, instigated by UK politicians. Anyone who sticks to their guns on something, fair play to them. I view it as many UK politicians sticking to their guns to hide the fact they had no plan or idea of how this would work, or to hide the fact that they wanted no deal all along. If they are never going to back down, which is their right, then I don't see why Irish politicians (or any other nationality) should either. At the moment they have the backing of the other 26 members, I don't see why they should not use it to their advantage. Likewise, I don't see any problem with China in their stance with the USA, having had that trade spat thrown upon them by the other side. I would not have a problem with a club digging their heels in when it comes to the price of a player that we want to buy. Its their decision and their right to do so. Club allegiance does not mean i have to despise the other club because they ask for a high price, after the player renewed his contract only a few month before, and we unsettled him via his agent and secret meetings.

I would also point out that I don't think all 52% would vote the same again if it meant severing all ties with the EU. Culturally its easy, as we have the island mentality, but economically i think many of the 52% would think again. I'm still amazed the number of farmers who voted for it. I think knowing what they know now, many would change their minds. Same for people involved in the just in time manufacturing process. To be honest if there was another vote it might be even tighter.

Alarm bells - again, you and I will not see eye to eye. I trust the fact we have a veto. If that got taken away, then hell yes I would think again about remaining but then so would all members. It works because there has to be consensus and with 27-28 members, to find that all the time on all matters will be neigh on impossible, hence i'm not afraid of even closer union because i don't think all 27 would ever agree at the same time. You can leave the EU, Art 50 allows that. It was always an unknown as no one had done it. What we are living through is the product of it being described as very easy, but in practice it is not so.
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He's only one man, all be it rather powerful,, Guy Verhofstadt has spoken publically at length about the need to remove all vetos if the EU is to 'move forwards'. Understandable that a federalist / integrationalist would wish this, because as you say it is a break on ever closer union. I suspect that over time, enough problems and emergencies will occur or be encouraged so as to remove these vetos and pool more power. Also see the recent calls for a move away from unanimous votes to qualified majority voting for the commission. It's the drip drip drip in action.

One of the authors of A50 (Giuliano Amato) admitted it's only there for show and was never meant to actually be used.
 
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dutchcherry said:
The Irish politicians have had this put on them by the decision of the UK, instigated by UK politicians. Anyone who sticks to their guns on something, fair play to them. I view it as many UK politicians sticking to their guns to hide the fact they had no plan or idea of how this would work, or to hide the fact that they wanted no deal all along. If they are never going to back down, which is their right, then I don't see why Irish politicians (or any other nationality) should either. At the moment they have the backing of the other 26 members, I don't see why they should not use it to their advantage. Likewise, I don't see any problem with China in their stance with the USA, having had that trade spat thrown upon them by the other side. I would not have a problem with a club digging their heels in when it comes to the price of a player that we want to buy. Its their decision and their right to do so. Club allegiance does not mean i have to despise the other club because they ask for a high price, after the player renewed his contract only a few month before, and we unsettled him via his agent and secret meetings.

I would also point out that I don't think all 52% would vote the same again if it meant severing all ties with the EU. Culturally its easy, as we have the island mentality, but economically i think many of the 52% would think again. I'm still amazed the number of farmers who voted for it. I think knowing what they know now, many would change their minds. Same for people involved in the just in time manufacturing process. To be honest if there was another vote it might be even tighter.

Alarm bells - again, you and I will not see eye to eye. I trust the fact we have a veto. If that got taken away, then hell yes I would think again about remaining but then so would all members. It works because there has to be consensus and with 27-28 members, to find that all the time on all matters will be neigh on impossible, hence i'm not afraid of even closer union because i don't think all 27 would ever agree at the same time. You can leave the EU, Art 50 allows that. It was always an unknown as no one had done it. What we are living through is the product of it being described as very easy, but in practice it is not so.
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As I say, the Irish and EU politicians are no better than ours. All of them should be acting in the best interests of their citizens yet none of them are. The EU politicians are equally as guilty as any UK politician. Their model has been roundly rejected by over 50% of voters in their second largest contributor yet they haven't even questioned as to whether it is the right way forward. They laughed off Cameron when he wanted them to make concessions to ease the growing dissatisfaction, gave him nothing now they have to reap what they sow.

Agree that not all 52% wanted the same thing, as I've always pointed out on this thread. If you can't see that the EU is a problem for many farmers and that the CAP is massively unsuitable to the UK farming set up then you're not looking hard enough. £1 farming subsidies that cost UK taxpayers £2 just don't cut it I'm afraid.

You think we'll have a veto in 40 years? They already advocate majority voting on key issues. Compare the set up in 1975 and 2016 to see how exponentially the thing will change in the next few decades. I would suggest that there's no way the 1975 referendum would have the same result if you had been able to show people what 40 years into the future will look like. Not just that but the people running the thing don't give a toss if voters don't like it - clearly, look at their reaction to our vote.

As I've said to you, Article 50 allows a member to leave but it doesn't half look like a sham given how they treat a member who's people actually decide that's what they want.
 
stanthevan said:
There is now talk of the government proposing a vote of no confidence in itself. Not even Monty Python could have come up with a party this silly.
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They might propose a vote of no confidence. But under the current landscape they’ll probably lose it.
 
The Planet explodes from within....Bercow gets blown onto Mars.
..".Awder ! Awder.!...you Rt Honourable little Green Sh#ts will obey Me"

A puerile post....but what else is making sense today?
 
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