Non - Brexit

And onto our 2nd bout of the evening, brought to you by Brexit Broadcasting in association with Vitals footy, proudly sponsored by minaturised chocolate bar promotions.

Introducing in the red corner Jim fighting out of somewherenonspecificandnotofthisplanet and in our blue corner Derek fighting out of knowswhathe'stalkingabout England.
 
We have large green fields. Thousands of farms.

I can grow thousands of tomatoes from seed in my limited garden space, likewise runner beans and spuds.

I dont need salt and vinegar flavoured ice cream from Naples or a huge Sphere of Edam which takes 5 minutes to peel the wax off!
I want a pile of Russet Apples from Deeper Herefordshire. .or a ship made in Govan.

This nation needs to grow a set of b#llocks...and fill its newspapers with tips on how to make things, grow things.....get the women back on weaving looms and milking stools....instead of them just sat dripping in Parliament about everything from Punch assaulting Judy...to the rise in Peeping Toms at the base of escalators!


I wouldnt want to be without Bananas or Staedtler pencils....but lets build our own ships to go and fetch them!
 
Recent Poll suggests a tighter 46% to 45% with 9% undecided nationally whether to stay in UK and 65% in Belfast where much of the previous troubles stemmed.
 
SlowDownDerek said:
I think you miss my point. If there is a democratic deficit in the UK then as a matter of construction there is a worse one in relation to the EU. The reason being that the only way a UK voter can realistically affect EU law is indirectly through the UK government's role in the EU Council and Commission - the two EU legislative bodies.

So, by definition these decisions are one step removed from the voter than any decision made by the UK government. 'We' the voters can't kick these people out we can only kick our government out and in reality a general election will never be swung on these type of issues. UK politicians can therefore divest accountability for any EU decision.

It's undemocratic by construction.

Whether it is with the consent of our politicians or not the EU can and has forced us into things against our will - in fact we've signed up TO the EU without a mandate from the people. UK voters have never been able to stop them signing up to Maastricht or Lisbon.. until 2016 when a majority rejected it despite the warnings of economics harm. Imagine what the result would have been before we were 25 years entrenched into the thing. Landslide rejection.

These points very much stand up to scrutiny - I've described in full why the EU has a worse democratic deficit than the UK and given a huge example of where we've been forced into something against our will. You've given nothing at all to support your argument.
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Your points are:
- Nobody voted for the Maastricht or Lisbon treaties
Correct. There are arguments about what issues should be put to the public vote but if anyone is to blame for that it's our Government, not the EU.

-Nobody wanted the Maastricht or Lisbon treaties
You can't say that as there wasn't a vote.

-The result of the Brexit referendum is a rejection of the Maastricht treaty
That is conjecture. The reasons people gave for Brexit were ranging and the result won on a narrow majority.

- Everyone has been waiting 25 years to have a vote on Maastricht
Again, is this based on fact or conjecture?

Your points based on being 2 steps removed from the EU is fair, but MEPs are elected and decisions are ratified by our government which is directly accountable to us. Or at least should be.

If you start getting dirty water through your taps do you contact DEFRA or do you speak to your water supplier?
 
BillMcgarrycherry said:
We have large green fields. Thousands of farms.

I can grow thousands of tomatoes from seed in my limited garden space, likewise runner beans and spuds.

I dont need salt and vinegar flavoured ice cream from Naples or a huge Sphere of Edam which takes 5 minutes to peel the wax off!
I want a pile of Russet Apples from Deeper Herefordshire. .or a ship made in Govan.

This nation needs to grow a set of b#llocks...and fill its newspapers with tips on how to make things, grow things.....get the women back on weaving looms and milking stools....instead of them just sat dripping in Parliament about everything from Punch assaulting Judy...to the rise in Peeping Toms at the base of escalators!


I wouldnt want to be without Bananas or Staedtler pencils....but lets build our own ships to go and fetch them!
Click to expand...


Women back on weaving looms? Nurse!! BillMcGarrycherry is channelling Jacob Rees-Mogg!! :p
 
SilentWriting said:
And onto our 2nd bout of the evening, brought to you by Brexit Broadcasting in association with Vitals footy, proudly sponsored by minaturised chocolate bar promotions.

Introducing in the red corner Jim fighting out of somewherenonspecificandnotofthisplanet and in our blue corner Derek fighting out of knowswhathe'stalkingabout England.
Click to expand...

Jimnnina going to have to change his sound bite to SDD Gang of Four
 
Red Sky said:
Your points are:
- Nobody voted for the Maastricht or Lisbon treaties
Correct. There are arguments about what issues should be put to the public vote but if anyone is to blame for that it's our Government, not the EU.

-Nobody wanted the Maastricht or Lisbon treaties
You can't say that as there wasn't a vote.

-The result of the Brexit referendum is a rejection of the Maastricht treaty
That is conjecture. The reasons people gave for Brexit were ranging and the result won on a narrow majority.

- Everyone has been waiting 25 years to have a vote on Maastricht
Again, is this based on fact or conjecture?

Your points based on being 2 steps removed from the EU is fair, but MEPs are elected and decisions are ratified by our government which is directly accountable to us. Or at least should be.

If you start getting dirty water through your taps do you contact DEFRA or do you speak to your water supplier?
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Your summary of my points is a misrepresentation.

I didn't say nobody wanted the Maastricht or Lisbon I said we never had a vote on it so it never had the consent of the UK electorate. That is a fact.

I didn't say everyone has been waiting 25 years for a vote on it I said it never had the consent of the UK electorate. Still a fact.

Have a look at the history of UKIP and the referendum party to see how dissatisfaction with Maastricht slowly forced the referendum they denied the people in the first place. Which resulted in a majority voting to leave the EU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Independence_Party?wprov=sfla1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendum_Party?wprov=sfla1

On that note you say the referendum result wasn't a rejection of Maastricht. The question was "do you want to leave or remain in the EU?" .. A majority voted to leave.. Maastricht literally created the EU.. how is that anything other than a rejection of Maastricht. It's the same thing.

The only conjecture in my post was that it would have been a landslide if Maastricht was put to a referendum. I've no proof of this other than the fact that they refused to ask the people at the time, why wouldn't they if a majority supported it? Also when we finally voted on it we rejected it even though we were 25 years intertwined so people like me voted to remain because leaving was more trouble than it was worth. I wouldn't have voted to join it and I think there's plenty like me.
 
So we're into "Tunnel Talks" according to Michel Barnier
Apparently "tunnel is Brussels jargon for intensive talks among a small core of negotiators carried out in total secrecy"
- which would explain why there's little detail floating around between the usual journalistic crowd online.
 
Profound Observation.....Barniers a Pr#c......slightly out of his depth dealing...or whatever you call it....with the Spectre of our History sitting on his shoulder!
F#ck me...who does he think we are Not.....Us?
 
SilentWriting said:
Todays BBC home page carrying on their project fear, their relentless and people say their objective and non-biased.

10 ways No Deal Brexit COULD affect you.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47470864

No 1 Groceries

Just checked our Fridge all meat & Fish from GB
Potatoes , all veg GB
Banana's from Equador
Braeburn apples from New Zealand

Nothing from the EU what so ever and that was without even trying.

Absolute tosh that we would face a food crisis.
Slightly less choice worse case scenario.

Saying the poor will be worse effected well Bread , Eggs, Meat, Potatoes & Veg is unaffected there's your staples.

and for the lazier cook types i'm sure your birds eye and other brands of chopped and shaped nugget type things will be unaffected as will your frozen chips and pizza.

I think people need to realise just how large our poultry, dairy, & pig farming industry is, only 2 years ago the guardian was complaining that we have nearly 800 livestock mega farms in the UK.

There are 10,000 official pig farms in the UK and 30,000 premises with pigs on (including pets)

Yet a well known highstreet bakery claims their stockpiling pork in case of no deal brexit, the reason for that , they import from the Netherlands, well simple answer to that , source your pork from here.
Click to expand...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41804993
 
wallmth said:
Jimnnina going to have to change his sound bite to SDD Gang of Four
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David Owen reborn, his way or no way....

In the course of his career, Owen has held, and resigned from, a number of senior posts. He first quit as Labour's spokesman on defence in 1972 in protest at the Labour leader Harold Wilson's attitude to the EEC; he left the Labour Shadow cabinet over the same issue later; and over unilateral disarmament in November 1980 when Michael Foot became Labour leader. He resigned from the Labour Party when it rejected one member, one vote in February 1981 and later as Leader of the Social Democratic Party, which he had helped to found, after the party's rank-and-file membership voted to merge with the Liberal Party.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Owen

The SDP was founded on 26 March 1981 by four senior Labour Party moderates, dubbed the 'Gang of Four': Roy Jenkins, David Owen, Bill Rodgers and Shirley Williams, who issued the Limehouse Declaration. Owen and Rodgers were sitting Labour Members of Parliament (MPs); Jenkins had left Parliament in 1977 to serve as President of the European Commission, while Williams had lost her seat in the 1979 general election. The four left the Labour Party as a result of the January 1981 Wembley conference which committed the party to unilateral nuclear disarmament and withdrawal from the European Economic Community. They also believed that Labour had become too left-wing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Democratic_Party_(UK)
 
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