Does anyone ACTUALLY think we're going down?
- Thread starter NWCherries98
- Start date
Neil Dawson
UTC Legend
The issue for me (odd though it sounds in a results business) is performances. In previous seasons I have seen the team play fantastically and lose unluckily or be on the wrong end of decisions and you know there is a chance. They have also played fantastically in those seasons and picked up some historic results. There were very few rank poor performances just a case of being outclassed at times and the odd off day.
This season I genuinely don't think we have once come near any of the previous two seasons good performances. I was impressed at Man U the other week (I missed Man City but trust the judgement of people on here that went we were also impressive). I've been to all four wins and didn't think they were great performances - even our one convincing win saw us have 35% possession, even in the spell with eleven men. Brighton hit the post at 1-0 when it was easier to score and Newcastle had a goal disallowed that should have stood. I know it annoys some people on here when you point it out but these are plain facts.
As well as not playing well we have also turned in far more abject performances - Burnley, Watford, West Brom, Liverpool, Arsenal etc than we did in similar spells last year. That just leaves the other games where we were average.
Keep going at this performance level and we have every chance of going down particularly if Pulis goes to Swansea and Stoke appoint another manager as they have an ok squad. We seriously have to buck our ideas up. We have the same squad that finished 9th, have added to it and not lost anyone. The desire, effort, tactics and selections have been rank bad in the main.
Arter, Cook, Wilson and other Cook have to start every game - you can't leave winners out of a losing team. Arter and Steve Cook will fight when 3-0 down to restore pride, try and nick a consolation....push on from that....always hoping. Surman, Ibe, Defoe were already planning where they were eating that night by the same stage of the match we started the fight-back last year.
No way are we too good to go down. We are good enough to stay up though.
This season I genuinely don't think we have once come near any of the previous two seasons good performances. I was impressed at Man U the other week (I missed Man City but trust the judgement of people on here that went we were also impressive). I've been to all four wins and didn't think they were great performances - even our one convincing win saw us have 35% possession, even in the spell with eleven men. Brighton hit the post at 1-0 when it was easier to score and Newcastle had a goal disallowed that should have stood. I know it annoys some people on here when you point it out but these are plain facts.
As well as not playing well we have also turned in far more abject performances - Burnley, Watford, West Brom, Liverpool, Arsenal etc than we did in similar spells last year. That just leaves the other games where we were average.
Keep going at this performance level and we have every chance of going down particularly if Pulis goes to Swansea and Stoke appoint another manager as they have an ok squad. We seriously have to buck our ideas up. We have the same squad that finished 9th, have added to it and not lost anyone. The desire, effort, tactics and selections have been rank bad in the main.
Arter, Cook, Wilson and other Cook have to start every game - you can't leave winners out of a losing team. Arter and Steve Cook will fight when 3-0 down to restore pride, try and nick a consolation....push on from that....always hoping. Surman, Ibe, Defoe were already planning where they were eating that night by the same stage of the match we started the fight-back last year.
No way are we too good to go down. We are good enough to stay up though.
Agree with nearly everything you say Neil - other than your last paragraph. I don't know who I think needs to start, no-one seems to play with much consistency, other than Ake and Begovic.
I do think the answer to the main question is a simple one. Play like we have the first half of the season and yes I think we'll go down. Improve and play how we know we can play, then no we won't go down.
I do think the answer to the main question is a simple one. Play like we have the first half of the season and yes I think we'll go down. Improve and play how we know we can play, then no we won't go down.
Neil Dawson
UTC Legend
My theory Red House is we have always been relatively under-resourced. Tall strong quick players with great technical ability cost the earth. If you are under-resourced relatively you tend to be in the market for tall quick players with less technical ability or good technical players who may lack physically. Because of the style of play we have we will favour the latter.
It is why you need to pay extra special attention to recruitment in either compromising on your style to have more of a mix (which we don't do|) or to really unearth a gem from a lower league or abroad that has both..........like Josh King. For this you need a diverse recruitment team.
It is why you need to pay extra special attention to recruitment in either compromising on your style to have more of a mix (which we don't do|) or to really unearth a gem from a lower league or abroad that has both..........like Josh King. For this you need a diverse recruitment team.
AFCBade
UTC Legend
As usual some good comments from Neil but I do react at some of the logic and positioning.
As for facts re games we were lucky to win you conveniently ignore 3 shocking penalty decisions that cost us points vs Leicester, Saints and palace while Defoe has hit the woodwork several times. Net we have been on the receiving end of more bad calls than given.
Amazed by the idea of rank defending, tactics and selection. Until recently we had the 6th best defence in the prem and had shut up shop vs big teams very well. That Chelsea defeat was a turning point as majority felt we were too meek in accepting a small defeat. Cue the call for having a go even if that meant bigger defeats. Cue the line up vs Man Utd and Liverpool. Have a go ...unless we get a tonking!
As for team selection how bad has it really been? A lot felt Lewis Cook should have played at the start (including me) as he was kept out by Harry Arter a player i admire as a player and person but who has had a poor season. Yet you are calling for arter to return and also Steve Cook, who by own admission hasn’t been playing well enough.
Some displays have been lifeless and hugely disappointing but I do feel if king and defoe had stayed fully fit we wouldn’t be having so much of a frenzied debate. Defoe missed excellent chances to make it 2-0 vs Everton palace & Man City let alone vs Liverpool and arsenal where pulling the game back to 2-1 may have made a real difference.
Sure there are issues (the table doesn’t lie) and I fear some stalwarts have reached the end of the road now but imho yours isn’t a balanced debate.
Kudos
UTC Legend
Never won a Premier League game without Francis, could be a reason... Ake, Cook, Mings all left sided might be another...
Pugh was "too good for ..." most in the league last year according to the chant. Now he's worthless? Fraser was a match for any in the league after his famous substitute performance.
More likely it's that the top teams have got their house in order and the rest are playing 5 at the back.
Defoe and King have played about a handful of games together. The poor supply to Defoe isn't really King's fault and if Afobe is the answer I'm not sure what the question is.
Anyway I don't think we'll be relegated and more importantly I'm not really scared if we do.
Neil Dawson
UTC Legend
AFC bade......... i never mentioned rank defending. Our defending has generally been much better this year.
When it comes to ref decisions you are missing my point. It was merely to illustrate that even our wins were not clear cut, as opposed to previous seasons. This was about performance strength not whether decisions had evened up so far. I wasn’t implying we should have zero points!
Team selection, I disagree, it has been poor. No three in midfield against teams that dominate, no Lewis Cook, Steve Cook is better than Francis imo. Harry Arter better than Surman. How come both the formers get dropped when poor but the latter don’t. Francis at right back? King not put as the furthest forward even though he terrorises defenders with speed...Defoe running onto long balls against young quick centre backs.
I’m amazed you can’t see this to be frank.
When it comes to ref decisions you are missing my point. It was merely to illustrate that even our wins were not clear cut, as opposed to previous seasons. This was about performance strength not whether decisions had evened up so far. I wasn’t implying we should have zero points!
Team selection, I disagree, it has been poor. No three in midfield against teams that dominate, no Lewis Cook, Steve Cook is better than Francis imo. Harry Arter better than Surman. How come both the formers get dropped when poor but the latter don’t. Francis at right back? King not put as the furthest forward even though he terrorises defenders with speed...Defoe running onto long balls against young quick centre backs.
I’m amazed you can’t see this to be frank.
AFCB+TFC
First Team
Kudos,
That's an unexpected stat but alot of that is that he's played nearly all our PL games. Don't get me wrong he was decent to good depending on form for most of our time in the prem but he doesn't pass the eye test anymore for me. I know he's our only right sided CB but Cook still does a better job there despite preferring the left.
I forgot all about Fraser but he certainly hasn't been PL quality this year. That said I think he's quality and just having a bad season, stilll young.
would King have scored 16 goals playing without Afobe? he would have probably gotten about 10. Everyone remembers Aboe's many misses and not his great holdup play and runs that create space for King to operate. for God's sake we came 9th with this striker duo, you can see the chemistry and understanding only a year of playing together can attain. Not this disjointed BS we've see so far this year from our supposed potent attack.
Yes unlike you I am abit scared of relegation because it's going to make following the team more difficult (for me) unless the team starts to do a streaming subscription, which I doubt they will.
That's an unexpected stat but alot of that is that he's played nearly all our PL games. Don't get me wrong he was decent to good depending on form for most of our time in the prem but he doesn't pass the eye test anymore for me. I know he's our only right sided CB but Cook still does a better job there despite preferring the left.
I forgot all about Fraser but he certainly hasn't been PL quality this year. That said I think he's quality and just having a bad season, stilll young.
would King have scored 16 goals playing without Afobe? he would have probably gotten about 10. Everyone remembers Aboe's many misses and not his great holdup play and runs that create space for King to operate. for God's sake we came 9th with this striker duo, you can see the chemistry and understanding only a year of playing together can attain. Not this disjointed BS we've see so far this year from our supposed potent attack.
Yes unlike you I am abit scared of relegation because it's going to make following the team more difficult (for me) unless the team starts to do a streaming subscription, which I doubt they will.
RoyalCherry
First Team
Of course there is a chance of us going down. Will we? Well it depends which team turns up in the games that matter. Play like we did against United and we will be very comfortable. Perform like we did against Liverpool and we can kiss the Premier League goodbye. Heart says no we won't, head says that we should scrape through but there is always that possibility.
Didn't wanna be in the bottom 3 at Christmas either but we could possibly be. Same thing unless we play like we did last Wednesday every match at the end of the season
Didn't wanna be in the bottom 3 at Christmas either but we could possibly be. Same thing unless we play like we did last Wednesday every match at the end of the season
redskins
First Team
Whether we oi stay up or go down depends solely, 100% , no questions asked on what happens between now and the end of the season. Any one who is sure we are staying up or going down must have a time machine or some clairvoyant type skills.
Its a good topic for conversation mind but what really matters is yet to come .
Its a good topic for conversation mind but what really matters is yet to come .
AFCBade
UTC Legend
I said you made a number of good points but felt your piece lacked balance. Hence the examples of lucky wins is just daft.
I have consistently said franno is finished at right back. I do think franno provides a degree of leadership that others lack which probably has kept him in the team but include him in the comment that stalwarts have reached their sell by date.
As for the rank comment, your 4th paragraph indicates tactics, selections, desire and effort are rank so that really covers everything doesn’t it! You can’t say all those but you exclude defence as that isn’t logical since it implies selection tactics and effort were good?!
wimborne cherries
First Team
My concern is the lack of players available to Eddie, something which we all know could have been prevented.
We are all calling for the "old guard" to be replaced in the starting 11 however we just don't have the players in backup to do so.
The main issue is the complete tactical inflexibility we seem to have at the minute. Opposition teams analysts must love watching us, must take them about 10 minutes too find out how to play against us.
We are all calling for the "old guard" to be replaced in the starting 11 however we just don't have the players in backup to do so.
The main issue is the complete tactical inflexibility we seem to have at the minute. Opposition teams analysts must love watching us, must take them about 10 minutes too find out how to play against us.
To be honest I think we have a pretty good chance of going down.
Our performances have been less than cohesive.
We bring in players like Gosling, Pugh, Smith and Arter who are all majorly out of form.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again....... we are losing games in the middle of the park.
Lewis Cook has been lambasted to be given a chance and he’s doing ok.
But with the shower of shyte he’s playing with how can he be expected to progress?
If Cook had some quality players around him he would properly flourish into the type of player he can be.
Good quality midfielders find a pass they can lay off to the likes of L Cook who then has a bit more time to pick his pass. Given that extra fraction of a second or half a second Cook will ping it around at will.
All we currently have is midfielders who want to lay the ball off so they don’t get caught in possession, with almost no thought of moving our play further up the pitch.
It’s all good signing a player who has attributes to deliver what you want, but Howe has to ensure that the likes of L Cook have players who can give him the ball, in the positions he needs to show what he can do.
Currently we have backwards and sideways Surman and Arter.
Fly forward and lose the ball Ibe and to a lesser extent Fraser.
Cook needs to sit slightly behind an attacking midfielder who doesn’t mind knocking it back.
All we have at the moment is defensive midfielders who want to knock it back.
By the time the opposition have reset and have 8 men behind the ball.
Hence the tippy tappy shyte we see alongside the oppositions 18 yard box.
In a nutshell, we are so defensively minded in midfield that by the time we move forward the opposition have us sussed and covered.
Howe wants to play wide with quality wingers but we don’t have that.
Ibe and To a lesser extent Pugh are not delivering Howes own philosophy.
Hence the embarrassing pursuit of a certain Demetria Gray.
Our performances have been less than cohesive.
We bring in players like Gosling, Pugh, Smith and Arter who are all majorly out of form.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again....... we are losing games in the middle of the park.
Lewis Cook has been lambasted to be given a chance and he’s doing ok.
But with the shower of shyte he’s playing with how can he be expected to progress?
If Cook had some quality players around him he would properly flourish into the type of player he can be.
Good quality midfielders find a pass they can lay off to the likes of L Cook who then has a bit more time to pick his pass. Given that extra fraction of a second or half a second Cook will ping it around at will.
All we currently have is midfielders who want to lay the ball off so they don’t get caught in possession, with almost no thought of moving our play further up the pitch.
It’s all good signing a player who has attributes to deliver what you want, but Howe has to ensure that the likes of L Cook have players who can give him the ball, in the positions he needs to show what he can do.
Currently we have backwards and sideways Surman and Arter.
Fly forward and lose the ball Ibe and to a lesser extent Fraser.
Cook needs to sit slightly behind an attacking midfielder who doesn’t mind knocking it back.
All we have at the moment is defensive midfielders who want to knock it back.
By the time the opposition have reset and have 8 men behind the ball.
Hence the tippy tappy shyte we see alongside the oppositions 18 yard box.
In a nutshell, we are so defensively minded in midfield that by the time we move forward the opposition have us sussed and covered.
Howe wants to play wide with quality wingers but we don’t have that.
Ibe and To a lesser extent Pugh are not delivering Howes own philosophy.
Hence the embarrassing pursuit of a certain Demetria Gray.
afcb.czech
Star Player
Exactly this. In the last 3 seasons Francis hasn't played in 7 PL games for us. This season he didn't play vs. Watford (L 0-2), Man City (L 1-2) and Swansea (D 0-0).
For me, Cook is definitely our best CB including Ake. Ake has a great fighting spirit about him but he is positionally suspect. Fans in England like seeing CBs who win lots of headers and make crunching tackles even if it is no more effective defensively than a smart defender. Some good examples are: Ian Cox, Jason Pearce, Stephane Zubar. However, I would argue that the more effective CBs were the likes of: Eddie Howe, Carl Fletcher, Shaun Cooper,
Ake is quality, surrounded by averageness.
He can not be in three places at once.
He is not perfect by a long shot but he is quality.
You can not pin your hopes on a single player when most lines of offence, defence and attack rely on partnerships.
Ake and Begovic have held our defensive record together this season, rather than any change in philosophy or tactics f on EH.
He can not be in three places at once.
He is not perfect by a long shot but he is quality.
You can not pin your hopes on a single player when most lines of offence, defence and attack rely on partnerships.
Ake and Begovic have held our defensive record together this season, rather than any change in philosophy or tactics f on EH.
poole bill
Trialist
Quite possibly yes. Last season we were collecting a few points against the big teams which we haven't been so far this season. I think our next few games will give us a good insight, I wouldn't expect anything at City but we must be collecting points against West Ham and Everton at home, as well as Brighton away. After those I think the picture will be clearer.
Poole, we know where we should be collecting points and we also know the games we should be winning.
It’s all relatively simple from our perspective and the managers.
The worry however remains:
What sort of surprise can Howe spring on the opposition at this current time which may worry them or cause them to change their own gameplan?
The reality is:
Not a fcki g thing
Nothing.
Nada
Zilch
Can we all see how the opposition can defeat us tactically before a ball has been kicked?
It’s all relatively simple from our perspective and the managers.
The worry however remains:
What sort of surprise can Howe spring on the opposition at this current time which may worry them or cause them to change their own gameplan?
The reality is:
Not a fcki g thing
Nothing.
Nada
Zilch
Can we all see how the opposition can defeat us tactically before a ball has been kicked?
I talk, not regularly, to a senior member of the coaching team and whilst what he tells me doesn't always pan out (he told me over 12 months ago that Eddie had decided Pugh wasn't good enough and we would not see him again) he is never the less very interesting about the current squad.
The players like Simon Francis, they like playing with him and he is also our only "real" right sided centre half. So he plays. Jordan Ibe is totally electric in training, unstoppable, and the team that has him in the 5 a side wins. Jack Simpson is getting somewhat cheesed off and is asking for a move/loan so that he can actually play football, the club are asking him to remain patient as they think he is going to be huge but obviously given what is happening on the pitch when does Eddie give him a run ? And Lys Moussete is an enigma wrapped up in a conundrum. Can't get out of bed in the morning, a member of staff has the specific job or ringing him and not stopping until he is certain that Lys is up and about and his diet is suspect, think Le Big Mac and le fries and you won't be too far away BUT he is a fantastic player who would be starting if he just "played the game" but sadly he refuses to, Eddie has no space for a maverick.
As told to me, nothing earth shattering or even that enlightening but as it is Christmas I thought I would share.
The players like Simon Francis, they like playing with him and he is also our only "real" right sided centre half. So he plays. Jordan Ibe is totally electric in training, unstoppable, and the team that has him in the 5 a side wins. Jack Simpson is getting somewhat cheesed off and is asking for a move/loan so that he can actually play football, the club are asking him to remain patient as they think he is going to be huge but obviously given what is happening on the pitch when does Eddie give him a run ? And Lys Moussete is an enigma wrapped up in a conundrum. Can't get out of bed in the morning, a member of staff has the specific job or ringing him and not stopping until he is certain that Lys is up and about and his diet is suspect, think Le Big Mac and le fries and you won't be too far away BUT he is a fantastic player who would be starting if he just "played the game" but sadly he refuses to, Eddie has no space for a maverick.
As told to me, nothing earth shattering or even that enlightening but as it is Christmas I thought I would share.
