Have we improved?

Neil Dawson said:
I’m using Burnley as an example of limited resource sticking to principles with sensible acquisition. You can do that in any style of play. Swansea did it it with our style of play with Martinez and Rodgers.

Of course I wouldn’t want us to play like them. Fulham, Wigan, Swansea, Charlton, Ipswich, Southampton all finished top eight playing good football in last twenty five years.

That’s what you aim at....not champions league.
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Thing is though what it also shows is that outside of the elite top 6 there is no other consistent team. One season these clubs make the europa league and then it all turns to rat s**t.

I applaud what Burnley have done this season but I won't get all misty eyed over them until they've done it next season, and the season after.

Two seasons ago our friends down the road were lauded as the model club.

This season has not been perfect by any stretch but we have evolved. We've brought younger players like L Cook, Lys, Ibe, Ake into the team and I expect them to get better and better. I expect more of the same over the summer and into next season.
 
At some stage we will plateau and stagnate as that is the pattern outside of Arsenal, Spurs, Chelsea, Liverpool, Everton, City and United.

Assuming the current bottom 3 go down the longest run in the PL will be Swansea for whom 2018/19 will be their 8th season, followed by West Ham with 7 and everyone else 6 or less.

To stay in the PL and improve over the years is unlikely.
 
wallmth said:
Seems judging by this thread Eddie and the team should never have finishing 9 last season , only 8th or higher would be considered a reasonable season by some ....the entitlement :shake:

We were all very excited at the end of last season .We finished 9th ,next season we’ll be pushing for Europe obviously ,because ,well because that’s what we do .we finish higher every season ...it doesn’t work like that .
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The thread was whether we improved not are we crap. We are all eternally amazed we are in this division.

In terms of where we are aiming at...you have to have something to aim at. Most clubs that have established themselves will look at that eight spot. That doesn’t mean we have a divine right to be there...it’s a target. Of course we will have dip years.

I think some people would just be happier if we played to our potential but dropped points against strong sides. We have too often not played to our potential and dropped points to bang average sides.
 
to slag burnleys style is very unfair on the evidence of our game with them at dean court. they comprehensively outplayed us all over pitch, and played very impressive football. too easy to resort to cliche abuse.
 
All we can do as fans is hope for the best and enjoy supporting the team ....we'll finish where we deserve to finish.....whether you think our manager knows what he is doing or you're like some on here who fantasise that they could do a better job... doesn't really matter..... fan's of pretty much every club think that they should be doing better....because as fans we hope for the best......here's hoping we'll finish top 4 next season!....:utc:
 
"We were lucky to catch Chelsea and Arsenal on off days in Jan and get 6 points, otherwise we would be right in the sxxt. "

Comments like this really baffle me! No, we were NOT lucky - we played very well on both games and deserved to win. Why should it be that every time we win such games, it's due to us being lucky??

We are where we are in the division deservedly, not by luck.

"We have conceded more goals than West Brom..." and?? Eight teams have a worse goal difference than us...so if we do concede a little more than most, we also score more than many teams too. Swings and roundabouts. And I'd rather have it this way than endless 0-0 and 1-0 games to be honest.

"The team is going backwards...."......really??? Compared to last seasons points tally, possibly. But overall, are we?? So many independent pundits and fans are still admiring us, still saying we are a hard team to play against and the league has been harder this season than last for sure.

I honestly think some of our fans need to take a look at themselves sometimes!
 
Do you think we have played as a team and as individuals better in more games than we did last season or in fewer games than last season davygravy?
 
Looking at everyone below Burnley, I reckon there are only a handful who have finished above 9th. Everton and Leicester obvious ones
 
Neil Dawson said:
Do you think we have played as a team and as individuals better in more games than we did last season or in fewer games than last season davygravy?
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Guessing the absolute high last season was 4-3 vs Liverpool....and maybe that is pretty unbeatable. Although winning 3-0 at Chelsea wasn't far off, whatever you may think of them, the manner in which we did that was not 'lucky', it was just brilliant.

What I have been trying to point out, whether fans think we've been below our standards from last season....we are still a hard to beat PL team. Outsiders say this all the time. Not to be sniffed at really is it?? While we all would love to have won a few more of those games, we have done well enough to be safe with several games left. I don't believe we are as bad as some seem to make out.
 
davygravy said:
Guessing the absolute high last season was 4-3 vs Liverpool....and maybe that is pretty unbeatable. Although winning 3-0 at Chelsea wasn't far off, whatever you may think of them, the manner in which we did that was not 'lucky', it was just brilliant.

What I have been trying to point out, whether fans think we've been below our standards from last season....we are still a hard to beat PL team. Outsiders say this all the time. Not to be sniffed at really is it?? While we all would love to have won a few more of those games, we have done well enough to be safe with several games left. I don't believe we are as bad as some seem to make out.
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The thread title was have we improved. Think of last years putting six past Hull, four past Boro, three away at Swansea, drawing with Spurs, comfortably beating Burnley and Leicester, four points off Liverpool, a great draw at Old Trafford with ten men etc etc. Ignore the results those were great dominant performances.

I think we haven’t come close to emulating it as a season. I know a lot of circumstances have changed between the years and it’s not like for like but where are the equivalent performances, Chelsea aside.
 
We were pretty crap for large parts of those Liverpool games last year - could have been out of sight in both. United away no different we went ultra defensive when we went down to ten (and were brilliant) but could easily have been four down after twenty minutes. A year from now you'll be reminiscing about how great our spirit was this season.
 
When you look at the stats we have only won a quarter of our games, nine in fact, and have only achieved one double against Stoke. We have beaten four teams above us and four below us. It makes you realise how important those wins against Chelsea and Arsenal have been to our season.

When you consider our inability to beat teams below us, it is that department that we need to improve on plus tightening our defence. As it stands we have the fourth worst goals conceded, only Stoke, West Ham and Watford have worse records.

Thankfully we are average at scoring goals. There are ten teams with worse records.

With the way we have comeback from losing positions it makes you wonder whether we should be starting with the team we finish a game with.
 
To have only lost 15 out of 35 games for a club of our resources is an amazing achievement when you consider we lost the first four with that awful start in August!
To have outclassed the mighty Arsenal for the first time ever after letting them draw in the previous season was a special moment for me, with half a team that played in Div One- come on, no one has the right to moan. And.. 3-0 at Stamford Bridge! Even saying those two sides were on a bad patch - yep, and so have we been on bad runs when they beat us in other games!
 
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wellsworld said:
to slag burnleys style is very unfair on the evidence of our game with them at dean court. they comprehensively outplayed us all over pitch, and played very impressive football. too easy to resort to cliche abuse.
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Mmmm. Not a cliche when backed up by the facts. Burnley have played more long passes than any other team this season (by far) and have completed the third lowest number of passes in total. Fair play to them but I wouldn’t want us to play like that.
 
Neil Dawson said:
The thread title was have we improved. Think of last years putting six past Hull, four past Boro, three away at Swansea, drawing with Spurs, comfortably beating Burnley and Leicester, four points off Liverpool, a great draw at Old Trafford with ten men etc etc. Ignore the results those were great dominant performances.

I think we haven’t come close to emulating it as a season. I know a lot of circumstances have changed between the years and it’s not like for like but where are the equivalent performances, Chelsea aside.
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I think the change in style hasn't helped the cause and I don't think you can really count Hull and Middlesbrough. Hull was the most obvious relegation from the start - a club in turmoil against an owner with the hump as he can't change their name. With his focus on that they went into the season unprepared but you have to give Mike Phealan some credit on how they did in the end despite going down.

Middlesbrough were just very weak, as shown they don't have much attacking power and Jordan Rhodes is a good Championship player but could never bridge the gap to Prem level
 
paul49 said:
When you look at the stats we have only won a quarter of our games, nine in fact, and have only achieved one double against Stoke. We have beaten four teams above us and four below us. It makes you realise how important those wins against Chelsea and Arsenal have been to our season.

When you consider our inability to beat teams below us, it is that department that we need to improve on plus tightening our defence. As it stands we have the fourth worst goals conceded, only Stoke, West Ham and Watford have worse records.

Thankfully we are average at scoring goals. There are ten teams with worse records.

With the way we have comeback from losing positions it makes you wonder whether we should be starting with the team we finish a game with.
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Or more importantly starting with the formation we end games with. In fact we did in those Chelsea and Arsenal games everyone keeps referring to.

Mmmmm....:unsure:
 
RoyalCherry said:
I think the change in style hasn't helped the cause and I don't think you can really count Hull and Middlesbrough. Hull was the most obvious relegation from the start - a club in turmoil against an owner with the hump as he can't change their name. With his focus on that they went into the season unprepared but you have to give Mike Phealan some credit on how they did in the end despite going down.

Middlesbrough were just very weak, as shown they don't have much attacking power and Jordan Rhodes is a good Championship player but could never bridge the gap to Prem level
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Hull and Boro both beat us that season. I think that qualifies them as fair opponents else it says a lot about us. I don’t think either were worse than West Brom or Stoke...probably on par.
 
Norton Cherry said:
Thing is though what it also shows is that outside of the elite top 6 there is no other consistent team. One season these clubs make the europa league and then it all turns to rat s**t.
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As if to highlight that point, the list below are teams that have been in Europa League and relegated since their European campaign, I went from 2002 as that's 15 full seasons. Bear in mind that there's plenty of other teams that played and haven't been relegated

Fulham, Ipswich, Blackburn, Leeds, Southampton, Newcastle, Millwall, Boro, Bolton, West Ham, Portsmouth, Villa, Hull, Birmingham CIty, Wigan, Stoke(?), Swansea(?)

Yet in the same period only 10 different clubs have qualified for the Champions League, this includes Everton, Tottenham, Leicester and Newcastle with only one or two seasons each. SO it does show the differnce between the 'top six' and everyone else, and how swiftly it can fall apart if you're not in that group
 
I missed Millwall in Europe. That must have been interesting!

None of us are arguing with the fact that it is very easy to have a bad run of luck, injuries, lose key players to opponents and drop out of this division never to return. It’s always a ticking clock unless you are top six.
 
We started the season very poorly and have been inconsistent since then. However this season also saw the away win at Chelsea. There were times when Chelsea played well in the game but we managed those periods and were lightning fast on the counter attack, clearly an important part of our game plan, and also scored from a set piece. Quite simply it was our best ever performance all over the pitch. We have had several notable wins in the PL but they have often been in chaotic games. Our performance at Chelsea this year was measured and controlled.

The jury may be out on whether we have improved overall this year, but we have evidenced that the potential of this squad is higher than it has ever been before.
 
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