Match Report and MOM v Norwich

Topfarrier said:
If something talks like a duck and walks like a duck....the chances are it's a duck Oldsckool.....Lewis is a defensive midfielder in the Surman mould ....nothing wrong with that but there's no point in wishing he was something else.
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I wouldn't say he's a defensive midfielder, more a deep lying play maker. We'd be better off dropping a striker and playing H. Wilson in the no 10 as I think it suits him better. In my view he isn't a wide player.
 
Druss_the_Legend said:
Little Cooks biggest detractor knows his best position.

Cooks is excellent in an advance position. He didnt play there on Saturday.
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Exactly this, farrier must have been absent from school when Lewis has played behind the strikers and set up goals like that beauty against Arsenal for Wilson. He's as effective in a forward midfield position as in a holding one.
 
Interesting discussion re L.Cook

I think part of his development will be in figuring out what his best midfield role is. I've seen him do the deep playmaking Surman-esq stuff, I've seen him move the ball up the pitch box-to-box like, and I've seen him deeper into the opposition half picking passes out. He can do any / all of it. These days you don't tend to get all-rounder midfielders, managers tend to specialise their midfielders, e.g. holding anchor. box-to-box, number10, etc.

Between it taking Cook a good year to break into our side, and then that long injury layoff, he's not played nearly as much PL football as he should have done in recent years, and probably hasn't developed as far as he could have done, yet.
 
I think we need to be careful with Lewis Cook. If we don't use him wisely, and get the best out of him pretty sharpish.... I fear a bigger club will see his underused talent and take him earlier than we'd expected... and he'd look good at a top club.
 
Neil Dawson said:
And all that’s fine if what you want is just to stay in this division, something in itself which is a massive credit worthy achievement.

I just look at our side and think they are better than Norwich, Sheff U, Fulham, Burnley, Newcastle Etc who we haven’t beaten at home on this run we are on. I want to get back to a system and philosophy of play where we look compact and energetic and dominate possession at home. Not concede it to the other side and try and play on the break.. we have become poorer to watch as the games above demonstrate.
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Completely agree with a lot of this (particularly the first point); however, we have very rarely been the bits in bold in the Premier League all at once. We have dominated possession against teams at home and looked absolutely insipid, and I have also seen us rip teams apart plenty of times with our counter-attack (Chelsea at home being the best example).

I would like to see a better balance of the different styles we've used in this league, used appropriately against the right teams. Norwich at home when they have no fit centre backs on the field, for instance, I would much rather see us go for it a bit more. Certainly more than we did.
 
davygravy said:
See, this is a far more reasoned post than what you normally do after a poor game, where its all about singling out players who were no worse than many around them....or saying our coaching isn't good enough....or the transfer policy is useless ;).

At the same time....I don't believe things are as bad you are trying to suggest, just because we are not really blasting out at teams like we used to. Its all about balance - we used fly at teams and then be left exposed at the back, everyone saying we need to defend better. This season, we are defending better but that has meant playing in a different way at times, so its very tricky to know which way to go. Ideally we could be great at both ends all the time but not many PL actually are.

As I said before, however much we spend on players [ when all other clubs do the same of course ], we can't still attract the finished article, most of the time. Even the likes of Ake were not that level when we signed them. We have a mostly young squad and they are all still learning. You single Solanke out all the time now, well, this is the first time in his career he has had a run of games, he's done well in most of them but not so good in a couple. This is probably the standard for most younger players.

The inconsistency of our team shows up in performances. Eddie said on Saturday, how they stopped doing things after a good starting twenty minutes. We have looked both very good and very poor in the same match a few times. But again, most PL teams this season could say the same thing, if you look at results elsewhere. Liverpool are the only side to be consistent this season and even they have looked dodgy in a couple of games.
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And some fans accept more easily than others that you can win, lose or draw against anyone and there is absolutely no one you can "wipe the floor with".
I work with a massive amount of different supporters across the country and their all the same as us. Same discussions, same results that are up and down and lack of consistently. The only difference I see/hear is they never slag players off or fail to give them anytime to come into a team and get to use to PL life.
Here, some wanted only a matter of months ago, Rico shipped out on loan to a league 1 club and a young striker with a few PL appearances under his belt is being disrepectfully associated with one of the worst strikers in our history.
Only our own supposed supporters here can do that.
 
davygravy said:
See, this is a far more reasoned post than what you normally do after a poor game, where its all about singling out players who were no worse than many around them....or saying our coaching isn't good enough....or the transfer policy is useless ;).

At the same time....I don't believe things are as bad you are trying to suggest, just because we are not really blasting out at teams like we used to. Its all about balance - we used fly at teams and then be left exposed at the back, everyone saying we need to defend better. This season, we are defending better but that has meant playing in a different way at times, so its very tricky to know which way to go. Ideally we could be great at both ends all the time but not many PL actually are.

As I said before, however much we spend on players [ when all other clubs do the same of course ], we can't still attract the finished article, most of the time. Even the likes of Ake were not that level when we signed them. We have a mostly young squad and they are all still learning. You single Solanke out all the time now, well, this is the first time in his career he has had a run of games, he's done well in most of them but not so good in a couple. This is probably the standard for most younger players.

The inconsistency of our team shows up in performances. Eddie said on Saturday, how they stopped doing things after a good starting twenty minutes. We have looked both very good and very poor in the same match a few times. But again, most PL teams this season could say the same thing, if you look at results elsewhere. Liverpool are the only side to be consistent this season and even they have looked dodgy in a couple of games.
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We stopped blasting out at teams half way through our first season and haven’t since. Full backs kept back and midfielders not getting in the box as much.It was the right thing to do. We evolved into a possession based side and had our best spells then. For the next three years we balanced good football but conceded too many. We changed last season to a very different concede possession and attack at pace on the break side to try and protect the defence. It worked a treat until sussed out. Since then teams have just sat high on us and stretched our forwards away from the rest of the team leaving a big gap and us exhausted. Interesting to read Frasers comments in the Echo today about wingers being told not to cross the ball and how tired we are. Clearly signs the players don’t get it.

It has been our worst spell in the PL since the change of system. Having less possession than Sheff U and Norwich at home is a massive departure from classic Eddie football. We didn’t need to change the way we played against lesser sides... we have always been good flat track bullies. We did need to change the way we played against top teams.

That’s my issue... we are way too regimented and predictable. We have a system we play 80% of the time and one we wheel out occasionally with five at the back neither of which address our key issue of the overran midfield and the gap to the forwards.

The sign of effective management is that you normally beat teams you are better than on paper. The sign of brilliant management (early Eddie) is you often beat teams you are less than on paper. At the moment we often have points taken off us by teams that shouldn’t, especially at home which means to me there is work to do.
 
Neil Dawson said:
nteresting to read Frasers comments in the Echo today about wingers being told not to cross the ball
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Eddie has always been very much into his stats, I think that had something to do with why Arter was told to stop shooting from distance for example. And I am sure its behind any instructions to not cross the ball [ although I am sure its not a total ban ] - because a stat will suggest we are more likely to score by passing through them.

I still don't really agree its as doom and gloom as you make out, overall. I don't see us gaining many extra points at this stage playing a different way. I know Sheffield and Norwich were two games we would have liked to win....but maybe Villa and Stains away, Everton at home, all bonus points when draws or defeats could have been expected. We have played great football at times and then less well at others, I still say a lot of this comes down to having such a young squad, many of the team being inexperienced at this level, so a bit of patience will be required. We are far from being alone in having these feelings.
 
Also regarding Player Ratings...

Ramsdale 7 - Had nothing to do for large parts of the game, but kept us in the match with one fantastic save. Sign of a top GK is to be ready when called upon. Distribution was also pretty decent.

Smith 7 - A little bit loose defensively in places, but his offensive work was top quality. Missed his marauding runs from deep.

S. Cook 7 - Led well from the back, kept everyone together as a unit and very strong whenever Norwich went more direct.

Ake 7 - Marshaled Pukki well and restricted him to very few clear cut chances. Strong, athletic, typical Ake performance.

Rico 7 - A consistently decent performer in this team now. Beaten a couple of times by his winger, but good link up play, set pieces and crossing.

Fraser 4 - Had a full 90 minutes to stake any sort of claim to having this innate footballing wizardry that warrants a move to a top club. Failed. What makes him a good player is his raw attributes; pace, physicality, strength and quick balls into the strikers. He does not have the top quality passing and trickery to be playing this reserved, passive style of play that he is opting for. That's a kind way of saying that he plays like he doesn't give a s*** anymore. He's hanging back, refusing to run at the opposition and playing deep like he's Harry Kane or something. Desperately poor.

L. Cook 6 - Decent enough display, with some tidy Surmanesque passing under pressure. Not sure the usual bite was there in this performance though, and would have liked to have seen a better range of passes.

Billing 8 MOM - Just about edges it for my MOM. An all round great display of forward passing, winning the ball and playing it out from under pressure.

H. Wilson 5 - Thought he had an excellent first 20 minutes, but then badly fizzled out. Looking more and more like a highlights player. I think he would benefit from a different role in the starting XI.

Solanke 4 - The boo boys will be happy that Dom finally put in an actual sub-par performance. Link up play was missing, which meant we were left with a very low on confidence striker who simply doesn't look like scoring.

C. Wilson 5 - I like him a lot, but he has quite a few games where he simply doesn't do anything at all. The briefest flashes of good hold up play and movement were outweighed by a completely passive performance with little to no goal threat.

Subs:
King 4 - Did absolutely nothing of note when he came on; didn't even press the centre mids playing in the back 4. Disappointing.

Danjuma 7 - Thought he had a very good little cameo from the bench. Reminds me of Ibe if he had more of a brain; very direct and got the ball quickly into dangerous areas. Should start next game.
 
West Moors Cherry said:
And some fans accept more easily than others that you can win, lose or draw against anyone and there is absolutely no one you can "wipe the floor with".
I work with a massive amount of different supporters across the country and their all the same as us. Same discussions, same results that are up and down and lack of consistently. The only difference I see/hear is they never slag players off or fail to give them anytime to come into a team and get to use to PL life.
Here, some wanted only a matter of months ago, Rico shipped out on loan to a league 1 club and a young striker with a few PL appearances under his belt is being disrepectfully associated with one of the worst strikers in our history.
Only our own supposed supporters here can do that.
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If you think only our supporters single out players you are kidding yourself, seriously.

I have a personal view on Solanke that he is not worth 19m we should have known that as he has only played well at a relatively easy level of football. If we saw potential we should have taken him on loan. He hadn’t scored massively in the championship on loan like Tammy Abraham he had been closeted in reserve football. Now I might be wrong... I’d love to be wrong... but I just don’t see him making it at the top level from years of watching football.

Rico was different. He had proven himself in his position in the second toughest league in the world. His was a ‘could he adapt to not being a wing back’ issue.
 
NWCherries98 said:
Also regarding Player Ratings...

Ramsdale 7 - Had nothing to do for large parts of the game, but kept us in the match with one fantastic save. Sign of a top GK is to be ready when called upon. Distribution was also pretty decent.

Smith 7 - A little bit loose defensively in places, but his offensive work was top quality. Missed his marauding runs from deep.

S. Cook 7 - Led well from the back, kept everyone together as a unit and very strong whenever Norwich went more direct.

Ake 7 - Marshaled Pukki well and restricted him to very few clear cut chances. Strong, athletic, typical Ake performance.

Rico 7 - A consistently decent performer in this team now. Beaten a couple of times by his winger, but good link up play, set pieces and crossing.

Fraser 4 - Had a full 90 minutes to stake any sort of claim to having this innate footballing wizardry that warrants a move to a top club. Failed. What makes him a good player is his raw attributes; pace, physicality, strength and quick balls into the strikers. He does not have the top quality passing and trickery to be playing this reserved, passive style of play that he is opting for. That's a kind way of saying that he plays like he doesn't give a s*** anymore. He's hanging back, refusing to run at the opposition and playing deep like he's Harry Kane or something. Desperately poor.

L. Cook 6 - Decent enough display, with some tidy Surmanesque passing under pressure. Not sure the usual bite was there in this performance though, and would have liked to have seen a better range of passes.

Billing 8 MOM - Just about edges it for my MOM. An all round great display of forward passing, winning the ball and playing it out from under pressure.

H. Wilson 5 - Thought he had an excellent first 20 minutes, but then badly fizzled out. Looking more and more like a highlights player. I think he would benefit from a different role in the starting XI.

Solanke 4 - The boo boys will be happy that Dom finally put in an actual sub-par performance. Link up play was missing, which meant we were left with a very low on confidence striker who simply doesn't look like scoring.

C. Wilson 5 - I like him a lot, but he has quite a few games where he simply doesn't do anything at all. The briefest flashes of good hold up play and movement were outweighed by a completely passive performance with little to no goal threat.

Subs:
King 4 - Did absolutely nothing of note when he came on; didn't even press the centre mids playing in the back 4. Disappointing.

Danjuma 7 - Thought he had a very good little cameo from the bench. Reminds me of Ibe if he had more of a brain; very direct and got the ball quickly into dangerous areas. Should start next game.
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Agree with pretty much all of this.

That Danjuma is the sort of player we thought we'd be getting when we signed Ibe is exactly what I have been thinking. With very little game time so far Danjuma already seems to be an upgrade on Ibe so surely his days with us our now well and truly numbered ?
 
davygravy said:
Eddie has always been very much into his stats, I think that had something to do with why Arter was told to stop shooting from distance for example. And I am sure its behind any instructions to not cross the ball [ although I am sure its not a total ban ] - because a stat will suggest we are more likely to score by passing through them.

I still don't really agree its as doom and gloom as you make out, overall. I don't see us gaining many extra points at this stage playing a different way. I know Sheffield and Norwich were two games we would have liked to win....but maybe Villa and Stains away, Everton at home, all bonus points when draws or defeats could have been expected. We have played great football at times and then less well at others, I still say a lot of this comes down to having such a young squad, many of the team being inexperienced at this level, so a bit of patience will be required. We are far from being alone in having these feelings.
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I don’t think it’s doom and gloom either! We won’t go down barring a freak run of events. To me it is more frustration. Maybe I have too high an opinion of our players but it’s only been Man City and maybe Leicester where I have felt we were up against much better squads. I genuinely believe being overran in midfield is costing them hitting their potential. And I do think they were good enough to win away at Villa and Southampton and beat that Everton side at home so don’t see those as bonus points.

Each to their own though!
 
Druss_the_Legend said:
Little Cooks biggest detractor knows his best position.

Cooks is excellent in an advance position. He didnt play there on Saturday.
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Lol this is hilarious.....no he didn't play there on Saturday Druss.....or at anytime for us ...Leeds or the England u21s.....but hes obviously excellent there iyo...:wack:
 
Topfarrier said:
Lol this is hilarious.....no he didn't play there on Saturday Druss.....or at anytime for us ...Leeds or the England u21s.....but hes obviously excellent there iyo...:wack:
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I can’t see him in an advanced role either... his passing range is long not slide rule ten yard passing. He also has a poor goal record. Brooks is the player for that position and while waiting Harry W. It’s all academic anyway as we don’t play with this formation sadly.
 
Neil Dawson said:
I can’t see him in an advanced role either... his passing range is long not slide rule ten yard passing. He also has a poor goal record. Brooks is the player for that position and while waiting Harry W. It’s all academic anyway as we don’t play with this formation sadly.
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Agreed Brooks is perfect for it....in fact probably the only player we have capable of playing there.
 
Neil Dawson said:
If you think only our supporters single out players you are kidding yourself, seriously.

I have a personal view on Solanke that he is not worth 19m we should have known that as he has only played well at a relatively easy level of football. If we saw potential we should have taken him on loan. He hadn’t scored massively in the championship on loan like Tammy Abraham he had been closeted in reserve football. Now I might be wrong... I’d love to be wrong... but I just don’t see him making it at the top level from years of watching football.

Rico was different. He had proven himself in his position in the second toughest league in the world. His was a ‘could he adapt to not being a wing back’ issue.
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No of course I don't think that, but there certainly is some sort of venom aimed at young players trying to make their way into the game, something that we've done with success and failure. I know you only do it in discussion on here Neil, like me, and that's fair enough, but some of the moaning, groaning and ridiculous slurs aimed at Solanke and Wilson on Saturday from people sat near me I just haven't experienced at various clubs across the country that I've been lucky enough to go to. From my experience it wouldn't happen at Leicester, Newcastle or Liverpool. They support.

I don't think Solanke is worth £19m either, but i also don't think Nathan Ake is worth £80m but thats the world we operate in, some transfers work, some don't. Solanke will need a full season to know whether he's the write off some would suggest. You may well be right, I know we all hope he comes good but it's still very early days. Just remember Ryan Fraser, Josh King, etc.

Rico, like Solanke, was written off on here though this year, and it's just one of my pet hates. People do improve with support and we've seen it too many times to keep slagging people off for trying their best.
 
Che Adams £15m
Neal Maupay £20m
Solanke £19m

That's the going price for strikers unproven in the PL.
You might say the top two have Championship experience. Counts for very little at the end of the day.
 
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