Topmodtony
First Team
Really enjoyed that. Thanks,
Match Report and MOM v Southampton
- Thread starter Neil Dawson
- Start date
Tinpot Club
Star Player
I’m not the biggest fan of 4-4-2 but the problem is not that formation specifically, it’s any formation which lends itself to playing in flat lines. When we play 3-4-3, it’s basically a line of 5, a line of 4 and a line of 1. Similarly with 4-5-1 / 4-3-3, it’s still a line of 5 across the middle.
We need to do away with any formation with 3 bands. Partly we get into that habit because of TV graphics, but look at other teams and see how they stagger their midfield into diamonds and triangles. Even sides playing a mythical front 3 are usually playing with 1 up top and 2 slightly wider and behind or in Liverpool’s case vice versa.
The idea is to create more depth to your structure to enable passing the ball up the pitch through opposition lines. So while it might seem nitpicking to call our system 4-4-2 and Southampton’s 4-2-2-2, having that 4th band in their formation allows them to progress the ball up the pitch with more control. Instead we are restricted to sideways passes and when we run out of options, a hoof down the channel.
Of course there are other factors too. Having players with the confidence and ability to find space and receive the ball on the turn would be helpful. I just think the way we set up in many games doesn’t give our players the best chance of using their talents effectively.
We need to do away with any formation with 3 bands. Partly we get into that habit because of TV graphics, but look at other teams and see how they stagger their midfield into diamonds and triangles. Even sides playing a mythical front 3 are usually playing with 1 up top and 2 slightly wider and behind or in Liverpool’s case vice versa.
The idea is to create more depth to your structure to enable passing the ball up the pitch through opposition lines. So while it might seem nitpicking to call our system 4-4-2 and Southampton’s 4-2-2-2, having that 4th band in their formation allows them to progress the ball up the pitch with more control. Instead we are restricted to sideways passes and when we run out of options, a hoof down the channel.
Of course there are other factors too. Having players with the confidence and ability to find space and receive the ball on the turn would be helpful. I just think the way we set up in many games doesn’t give our players the best chance of using their talents effectively.
Johnny Comelately
Star Player
Ah evangelicals that hasn’t been trotted out for a while.Bless.
I put this season down to the players for all the reasons I’ve said before. It doesn’t change just because we put together a few good performances or we lose to Southampton.
As for the Southampton game. I think Howe tried to strip things down to being as basic as possible. Take the pressure of them with doing the “right things” by letting them be free to hit the channels, hit it long, chuck in the crosses, shoot from distance and hope for some 50-50’s and second balls to fall for us.
It was scrappy, it was messy, we created chances but it wasn’t pretty. I wasn’t a fan, but understand it with the circumstances and this set of players.
I don't think you can simply blame the players for this season's debacle. After all, who scouted them, bought them and coached them. One of the main problems is the team frequently lacks energy and aggression and the real question is why? It's not simply down to them being lazy or lacking in ambition. So many other teams, from Man City to Burnley, play with so much more energy it's really noticeable that we don't. After the Spurs game the players were dead on their feet after putting in a bloody good shift but so many other teams play like that week in and week out and don't look anywhere near as shattered as our lot did.
Injuries are a massive reason why we are where we are . Another is the rigid way we play .
I love Lerma in midfield , but image if we had a player alongside him , like a ward-prowse ( a bit like arter ) with energy zip and aggression .
who can play between the lines.
one of the attacking two that can actually link up play .
I love Lerma in midfield , but image if we had a player alongside him , like a ward-prowse ( a bit like arter ) with energy zip and aggression .
who can play between the lines.
one of the attacking two that can actually link up play .
Johnny Comelately
Star Player
I also thought Rico played well yesterday, free kicks and corners aside, so why is EH so reluctant to play him? Instead he's crowbarring Smith into LB or playing 4 CBs. Frankly, some decisions have just been bizarre.
Johnny Comelately
Star Player
I may be wrong but didn't we have almost as many injuries last season, maybe one less? Francis and Daniels should both just be squad members by now so perhaps not as big a miss as Brooks for example, or some of the players who were injured last year.
davygravy
Fans' Favourite
This is right....we were probably the better team until that first goal....and even when it all went to sh*t in the second and we had a formation that I have no clue what it was....we still created enough chances to draw or win. [ Yes, Stains also had a few chances too ]. By the way, I always think it unfair when blocks from shots on target are not counted as being on target. A couple of times they blocked an effort that was definitely on target.
davidwhitehead
Fans' Favourite
His injury record with us was excellent.
West Moors Cherry
Star Player
Ah evangelicals that hasn’t been trotted out for a while.
I put this season down to the players for all the reasons I’ve said before. It doesn’t change just because we put together a few good performances or we lose to Southampton.
As for the Southampton game. I think Howe tried to strip things down to being as basic as possible. Take the pressure of them with doing the “right things” by letting them be free to hit the channels, hit it long, chuck in the crosses, shoot from distance and hope for some 50-50’s and second balls to fall for us.
It was scrappy, it was messy, we created chances but it wasn’t pretty. I wasn’t a fan, but understand it with the circumstances and this set of players.
I'm gobsmacked to read that DJ.
Firstly, on the season, I don't blame the players at all. It has been quite clear , to me, watching them they don't like the formation and set up and probably don't understand it either after so many years of success not playing that way. This for me is the best squad we've had and yet we're being relegated with it. I look at the reason's why and I can't really fault any player, especially with many of them playing positions and systems they are just not used to. Harry Wilson and lately David Brooks use this season has been a criminal waste by Eddie.
On yesterday, like redhouse says, I saw the formation and starting line up and feared the worse after I'd got over the shock of seeing that stubborn Eddie had decided to test Einstein's theory for the 30th time this season. I found this mindblowing. After turgid displays using the two in midfield against Palace, Newcastle and the first half vs Leicester to return to it yet again is quite incredible and I'll never understand it. By changing it in the Leicester & Man City games Eddie had given us a boost and a chance of staying up despite the loss at City. Yesterday I believe he took it away and shot himself in the foot.
The final nail was playing Callum Wilson. A player so out of form he's been offside more this season than the previous 4 seasons combined. He's completely shot of confidence and so we bring him back in for the most crucial game and drop the guy who had been trying to break thru all season and had scored twice and played well above average in those last two games. Mystifying.
I lay the blame squarely at Eddie's door. I also back him to get it right next season if hopefully he stays.
See with yesterday I thought he would start with the same team that started against city. I did think bringing in brooks in the middle instead of gosling would be a great shout .
We were better yesterday and I mean a lot better than against palace or Newcastle .
Defensively we played the ball up quicker and in the first half we did get their defence turning
everyone know saints have been pretty solid defensively. Having someone with guile in the middle is what we have been craving and craving for ages
We were better yesterday and I mean a lot better than against palace or Newcastle .
Defensively we played the ball up quicker and in the first half we did get their defence turning
everyone know saints have been pretty solid defensively. Having someone with guile in the middle is what we have been craving and craving for ages
West Moors Cherry
Star Player
Agreed we were but we wouldn't have scored if we were still there now in Callum's current run of form.
DJ
Moderator
Absolutely gobsmacked to read that someone believes the players have played well enough to be expunged of any fault in all of this over the course of 37 games. They are the ones that cross the white line. They are the ones who should show they have some professional pride in their performances. They are the ones in charge of their own destiny. They haven’t done that throughout the season.
Ryan Fraser has come out and admitted it for all of his sins. There are other players who have also been guilty of happily treading water, doing the minimum and not putting a full shift in. All the experienced players should shoulder some responsibility.
But yes blame the manager and let them get off scott free without a care in the world....like they’ve acted most of the season...
Neil Dawson
UTC Legend
When Eddie turned a bunch of Championship rejects and also rans into a Premier League team it was him that rightly got the plaudits. Yes the players worked hard but he motivated them to do so and lined them up in a way that allowed them to express themselves. Paul Groves had signed a lot of them and they looked like they would get relegated if he had stuck around, instead they ended up three years later beating Man U and Chelsea in the same week. One man achieved that.
Similarly, one man is responsible for the current confused low energy borefest we watch every week at the moment. Lerma and Billing etc are no more to blame for our current malaise than Pugh and Daniels were under Groves.
DJ
Moderator
Howe was of course the catalyst in why the results turned around so quickly. But it’s not a case that Groves had a squad of Premier League ready players at the bottom of League One, they developed and grew together to get to that level.
Of course Eddie Howe takes a lot of credit for being able to develop those players over time to the level they got to, some on the brink of an England call up in regards to Steve Cook and Adam Smith, but those players equally deserve credit for their own individual rises.
A good manager can’t make a load of League One misfits into a Premier League side without the efforts of the players. Just like a poor Premier League manager wouldn’t get a load of world beating star players relegated...look at Solksjaer terrible at Cardiff, but his faults get covered most of the time by the ability of his players.
I’m not saying Howe is faultless this season. They all should take responsibility, I don’t doubt Howe does. I can’t say the same about the players who have become too content, too comfortable and sleep walked their way into this problem during the first half of the season.
Like most situations the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Both Eddie and the players have been poor in their respective roles this season, I think you can at least say for Eddie that it isn’t due to a lack of trying, which you can’t say for a number of the players (both Wilson’s, Billing, Fraser ect.) unfortunately with Eddie, dare I say it, his faults this season have lay in his inability to see the blindingly obvious/his stubbornness to persist with a formula that clearly wasn’t working. Tbh I have found his decisions absolutely baffling on many occasions this season, but I still hold no ill feeling whatsoever towards him, he is human and bound to make mistakes. I can’t say the same for a select few of the players this season however, who’s conduct has quite frankly been disgraceful. In fact in my 20 years supporting the team I can honestly say I’ve never disliked a squad of players so much, Billing H Wilson et al are exactly the kind of characters we should have been avoiding at all costs.
West Moors Cherry
Star Player
I'm not absolving the players of responsibility at all but I have felt from the beginning the formation and way they've been set up is wrong and not best suited to their skills and what they've known before. Like you say they are as much to blame but the main issue for me has come from the top and a stubbornness to not change anything when it clearly needed to be.
Ah of course - I'd forgotten that we have such a good track record overall for keeping an injury-free squad.
Topfarrier
UTC Legend
Stubbornness to change!.....honestly i don't know where this comes from.....as mentioned umpteen times on here we"ve played every formation known to man this season....often 2-3 in the course of a game..
..Eddie must be one of the most flexible managers in the league when it comes to systems.
SlapheadRed
New Signing
This “problem” was illustrated to me In a few ways; Harry Wilson on our right, so one-footed that he tries to cross with the outside of his left foot and pokes the ball straight to the keeper. He earlier had a one-on-one that begged a right foot shot......what does he do? You’ve guessed it!
Then, 80 minutes of same old-same old corners and long throws, EH sends on our Battering-Ram who actually wins a header which results in him smashing a shot into the net.
Why play a loanee, out of position, who seems so obsessed with disturbing his hair that he puts his hands up to fend off a corner?
Why play a system that required someone tall and aggressive to win headers and then not play one until its too late?
I expect someone could explain. I’m mystified. How on earth have we thrown away our Premiership status?
Topfarrier
UTC Legend
In answer your question.....Man Utd at home and Brighton most recently.......victory's playing any other system are pretty thin on the ground ...I can think of one playing 433...Villa at home....one playing 451 which was Chelsea and of course Leicester when Eddie stubbornly switched to a wing back system in the second half.....and err nope cant think of anymore....as has been said on here why would Eddie stick with any system that clearly doesn't work!
