Neto

I am biased, but it's the most difficult position on the field. Lots of myths around from media types who think they know what types of shots are 'easy' to deal with. How many have experienced it it real life? It's the only position where you have to be perfect 100% of the time. Really good teams defend so well the keeper has very little to do and only has to make two or three saves max. per game. We don't do that. We give our GK loads of work to do, they criticise him when he makes a few errors. We could have Alisson in goal and things wouldn't be much better. Just unrealistic expectations.
 
CherryBeetle said:
I am biased, but it's the most difficult position on the field. Lots of myths around from media types who think they know what types of shots are 'easy' to deal with. How many have experienced it it real life? It's the only position were you have to be perfect 100% of the time. Really good teams defend so well the keeper has very little to do and only has to make two or three saves max. per game. We don't do that. We give our GK loads of work to do, they criticise him when he makes a few errors. We could have Alisson in goal and things wouldn't be much better. Just unrealistic expectations.
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This "he doesn't command his box" criticism seems to be one that has been levelled at every keeper we've ever had from my memory. To a layman you'd think he should be pushing the ball on that first goal, is that not the case?
 
SlowDownDerek said:
This "he doesn't command his box" criticism seems to be one that has been levelled at every keeper we've ever had from my memory. To a layman you'd think he should be pushing the ball on that first goal, is that not the case?
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Indeed. If you watch it back, the first goal arises from a really smart low fizzing shot. Neto did really well just to keep it out. It was a very smart save. He is using all his experience to prevent a goal. If he worries too much also pushing it wide he risks letting it in. He did his first job. He kept it out. Once the ball is back in play it becomes the defenders job to help mop up and prevent a second shot. The ball could have gone anywhere. As it happened it fell perfectly for Hamer, who finished brilliantly. If some of our attackers knew where the net was, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
 
CherryBeetle said:
Indeed. If you watch it back, the first goal arises from a really smart low fizzing shot. Neto did really well just to keep it out. It was a very smart save. He is using all his experience to prevent a goal. If he worries too much also pushing it wide he risks letting it in. He did his first job. He kept it out. Once the ball is back in play it becomes the defenders job to help mop up and prevent a second shot. The ball could have gone anywhere. As it happened it fell perfectly for Hamer, who finished brilliantly. If some of our attackers knew where the net was, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
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I have to disagree with you on this one CB. Neto didn't do his job for the first goal and it wasn't a smart save. A Premier League goalie should not be spilling simple shots like that so that a forward can follow up and score: he should be holding on to the ball and smothering it to prevent exactly what subsequently happened occurring. As for the second goal, that was a really poor effort by Neto when it would have been very easy for him to catch the ball, and no one else was to blame for the goal but him. The poor goals he has conceded this season don't seem to be mere mistakes that all keepers make from time to time, but more like basic deficiencies in his abilities or techniques. I like goalies who are good at catching the ball and dislike those who parry it as a first choice. Every keeper at this level should be adept at catching nearly everything that comes their way, and the balls that can't be caught should be pushed round the post or over the bar or punched well clear of danger.
Someone also posted a stat showing the number of saves he has made which is one that is not always a true representation of a keeper's overall ability. Every goalie who earns a living from playing football (and quite a few who don't) is capable of making brilliant saves, so that is not a true guide to their overall ability. The best keepers often snuff out attacks before they end in shots or headers. With his well documented aversion (almost a fear) of coming off his line to intercept high balls, Neto is definitely not one of those.
It also seems to me that his positional sense is poor. As an example look at the goal that Jensen scored from a free kick for Brentford earlier in the season, and even the spectacular save he made against Burnley last week would have been a quite straightforward one if he had been correctly positioned in the first place.
I would like Travers to be given the job for the rest of the season to judge how well he makes out given a good run of games. If it then transpires that he can't cut the mustard either, our top priority in the close season must be to bring in a proper PL quality keeper if we want to keep improving our league position season on season.
 
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CherryBeetle said:
Indeed. If you watch it back, the first goal arises from a really smart low fizzing shot. Neto did really well just to keep it out. It was a very smart save. He is using all his experience to prevent a goal. If he worries too much also pushing it wide he risks letting it in. He did his first job. He kept it out. Once the ball is back in play it becomes the defenders job to help mop up and prevent a second shot. The ball could have gone anywhere. As it happened it fell perfectly for Hamer, who finished brilliantly. If some of our attackers knew where the net was, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
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That's always the gamble.

I've watched 'keepers gradually swap from catching to punching and seen various videos and articles on the subject where it turns out that it's not just "your" 'keeper who can't catch a ball it's actually a combination of newer balls being harder to hold and the relative risks of catching vs punching (i.e. attempting to catch the ball results in conceding a goal more frequently than punching, a striker happening to get on the end and finishing).

It's the keeping equivalent of "all he has to do is keep it on target"
 
LewSwimmin said:
I have to disagree with you on this one CB. Neto didn't do his job for the first goal and it wasn't a smart save. A Premier League goalie should not be spilling simple shots like that so that a forward can follow up and score: he should be holding on to the ball and smothering it to prevent exactly what subsequently happened occurring. As for the second goal, that was a really poor effort by Neto when it would have been very easy for him to catch the ball, and no one else was to blame for the goal but him. The poor goals he has conceded this season don't seem to be mere mistakes that all keepers make from time to time, but more like basic deficiencies in his abilities or techniques. I like goalies who are good at catching the ball and dislike those who parry it as a first choice. Every keeper at this level should be adept at catching nearly everything that comes their way, and the balls that can't be caught should be pushed round the post or over the bar or punched well clear of danger.
Someone also posted a stat showing the number of saves he has made which is one that is not always a true representation of a keeper's overall ability. Every goalie who earns a living from playing football (and quite a few who don't) is capable of making brilliant saves, so that is not a true guide to their overall ability. The best keepers often snuff out attacks before they end in shots or headers. With his well documented aversion (almost a fear) of coming off his line to intercept high balls, Neto is definitely not one of those.
It also seems to me that his positional sense is poor. As an example look at the goal that Jensen scored from a free kick for Brentford earlier in the season, and even the spectacular save he made against Burnley last week would have been a quite straightforward one if he had been correctly positioned in the first place.
I would like Travers to be given the job for the rest of the season to judge how well he makes out given a good run of ganes. If it then transpires that he can't cut the mustard either, our top priority in the close season must be to bring in a proper PL quality keeper if we want to keep improving our league position season on season.
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Every result that doesn't go our way comes with pelters for Neto. I feel like I need to repost this weekly. There's 37 keepers on the list, Neto is 9th. There are 21 with a negative score (including Ederson) yet Neto isn't good enough for the league? :unsure: 1710157711226.png
fbref.com

Premier League Goalkeeper Stats | FBref.com

Check out Goalkeeper Stats for the 2023-2024 Premier League season.
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Kudos said:
Every result that doesn't go our way comes with pelters for Neto. I feel like I need to repost this weekly. There's 37 keepers on the list, Neto is 9th. There are 21 with a negative score (including Ederson) yet Neto isn't good enough for the league? :unsure: View attachment 13535
fbref.com

Premier League Goalkeeper Stats | FBref.com

Check out Goalkeeper Stats for the 2023-2024 Premier League season.
fbref.com fbref.com
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I prefer to rely on my own judgement rather than "statistics" based on the opinions of unknown persons on what they think a keeper should or shouldn't have saved. Saves are only a part of the picture when it comes to goalkeeping. For example, does the first goal on Saturday count as a save? "There are lies, damn lies and statistics":) Do you think that Neto is a better goalie than Ederson?
 
CherryBeetle said:
I am biased, but it's the most difficult position on the field. Lots of myths around from media types who think they know what types of shots are 'easy' to deal with. How many have experienced it it real life? It's the only position where you have to be perfect 100% of the time. Really good teams defend so well the keeper has very little to do and only has to make two or three saves max. per game. We don't do that. We give our GK loads of work to do, they criticise him when he makes a few errors. We could have Alisson in goal and things wouldn't be much better. Just unrealistic expectations.
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Is it unrealistic to expect him to deal with basic crosses? The first goal I can forgive, he should have done better but it wasn’t a howler. The second just isn’t good enough, if it’s in his six yard box he should be dealing with it comfortably. He has displayed time and time again that he just isn’t comfortable commanding his six yard box, it’s a huge deficiency in his game and it costs us regularly.
 
Probably the first time I agree with Waz. The first you can see he's trying to push it away but hits his wrist not his hand, at that speed it's a pretty easy mistake to make. The 2nd was a howler.
 
LewSwimmin said:
I prefer to rely on my own judgement rather than "statistics" based on the opinions of unknown persons on what they think a keeper should or shouldn't have saved. Saves are only a part of the picture when it comes to goalkeeping. For example, does the first goal on Saturday count as a save? "There are lies, damn lies and statistics":) Do you think that Neto is a better goalie than Ederson?
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Statistics (no quotes necessary) show up your biases, people who ignore them often do so because they don't like to confront them.

Isn't Ederson famously selected for his distribution and outfield ability over his shot stopping? The stat that has him with the best pass completion would suggest so.

I would hundred percent trust that a team of experts looking at over 200 shots on target faced by Neto and Ederson quantifying the relative difficulties would be a better measure than me eyeballing from a stand or TV feed 80% of Neto's saves and a dozen of Ederson's.
 
Kudos said:
Every result that doesn't go our way comes with pelters for Neto. I feel like I need to repost this weekly. There's 37 keepers on the list, Neto is 9th. There are 21 with a negative score (including Ederson) yet Neto isn't good enough for the league? :unsure: View attachment 13535
fbref.com

Premier League Goalkeeper Stats | FBref.com

Check out Goalkeeper Stats for the 2023-2024 Premier League season.
fbref.com fbref.com
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I note that he's 6th among those who've played at least 20 matches.
 
Kicks_On_66 said:
I note that he's 6th among those who've played at least 20 matches.
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I presume under a smaller sample size it's easy to get a swing that throws you in the top or bottom 10.
It did occur to me to filter them out but it starts to get messy as it doesn't factor in that Neto is called on to make twice as many saves per game than say Pope.

Interestingly on a flat save percentage he's 8th.

There's virtually no way you could that website to make him look bad.
 
Kudos said:
I presume under a smaller sample size it's easy to get a swing that throws you in the top or bottom 10.
It did occur to me to filter them out but it starts to get messy as it doesn't factor in that Neto is called on to make twice as many saves per game than say Pope.

Interestingly on a flat save percentage he's 8th.

There's virtually no way you could that website to make him look bad.
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I don't think people are questioning his shot stopping. I mean he did save the shot that led to the goal. Arguably the second shot was harder to save (or easier to score) so that likely didn't hurt his shot stats.
 
Kudos said:
I would hundred percent trust that a team of experts looking at over 200 shots on target faced by Neto and Ederson quantifying the relative difficulties would be a better measure than me eyeballing from a stand or TV feed 80% of Neto's saves and a dozen of Ederson's.
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I think we might have to agree to disagree on this one K as I'm definitely not a Neto fan for all the reasons stated. Your point about the move away over the years from keepers trying to catch the ball to beating it away is an interesting one, and something I have noticed myself. Peter Schmeichel seemed to be one who started this trend, but my goalkeeping heroes were the likes of Banks and Jennings who tried to catch the ball whenever they could, and I also admired Bruce Grobelaar's ability to dominate his box. Your point about modern footballs is also interesting. I don't know how hard they are to catch as I've never tried it, but there is no doubt that they fly through the air a lot quicker than the old ones as is evidenced by all the spectacular unstoppable long distance goals we have witnessed recently.
 
Kudos said:
I presume under a smaller sample size it's easy to get a swing that throws you in the top or bottom 10.
It did occur to me to filter them out but it starts to get messy as it doesn't factor in that Neto is called on to make twice as many saves per game than say Pope.

Interestingly on a flat save percentage he's 8th.

There's virtually no way you could that website to make him look bad.
Click to expand...
I think what you posted is fine. It's informative, even if it is just statistics. ;) On the other hand, I think it's fair to say that these figures address shot-stopping and not other aspects of what makes a good modern-day goalkeeper. I do think Neto should certainly have come for and caught what became Sheffield's second goal. It's not the first instance of that kind of play this season. It's something he could improve on.
 
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