Non - General Election

SlowDownDerek said:
Maybe I should have been clearer in that I was asking him to back up his point with evidence, as others have done for him. Making drastic claims without backing them up is what I have a problem with.
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Apologies for making an assumption but for someone who takes quite an interest in politics and I enjoy your posts for both your views and devils advocate posts... Paul’s claims cannot have been ground breaking news for you?
 
SlowDownDerek said:
Maybe I should have been clearer in that I was asking him to back up his point with evidence, as others have done for him. Making drastic claims without backing them up is what I have a problem with.

I made the "unsubstantiated b*llocks" claim after he told me not to criticise his point of view.
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Errr, not quite. This was your initial response :

"You've posted this crap loads of times without ever explaining yourself.

"Topple our nation's way of life" where are you getting this b*llocks from? "

So first of all, you tell Paul his post was crap, then you tell him he never explains himself, i.e. his views are unsubstantiated. Then, you further ridicule him by saying his views are ********************************.

Not exactly the same thing as "asking him to back up his point with evidence", now is it ?
 
DJ said:
Apologies for making an assumption but for someone who takes quite an interest in politics and I enjoy your posts for both your views and devils advocate posts... Paul’s claims cannot have been ground breaking news for you?
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No they weren't, but I find it irritating that people post things like that without at least providing evidence of theirs point. It was clearly a one sided opinion rather than a matter of fact as made out.
 
DJ said:
Apologies for making an assumption but for someone who takes quite an interest in politics and I enjoy your posts for both your views and devils advocate posts... Paul’s claims cannot have been ground breaking news for you?
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Agreed.

It would be a bit like saying, for example, that Nigel Farage is in favour of free market capitalism. Doesn't really need to be substantiated, does it ?

A "drastic claim" ? Come off it !
 
davidwhitehead said:
Errr, not quite. This was your initial response :

"You've posted this crap loads of times without ever explaining yourself.

"Topple our nation's way of life" where are you getting this b*llocks from? "

So first of all, you tell Paul his post was crap, then you tell him he never explains himself, i.e. his views are unsubstantiated. Then, you further ridicule him by saying his views are ********.

Not exactly the same thing as "asking him to back up his point with evidence", now is it ?
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I think his post is crap, as it was last time he posted it. He doesn't explain himself so yeah that's exactly what my post says, with a bit of spice thrown in.
 
But why is it crap ? Seemed like a perfectly reasonable summary of McDonnell's position.

Is it the "Lord help us all" bit ?
 
SlowDownDerek said:
The Tory capitalist system is in the process of destroying itself. He wants to topple greed based economic forces to improve our "way of life" not destroy it. You only have to look at the poverty around us and the shocking state of public services in this country to see that "our way of life" that Paul seems to be so worried about is not exactly working as it stands.
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But in the midst of a crisis when people were losing their homes and giant banks were hanging on by a thread he says “ I’ve been waiting for this for a generation “ ok it may have been tongue in cheek but do you think as a Chancellor he should be having these Marxist attitudes .
It’s not a “Tory”capitalist system it’s just capitalist . The problem for the likes of McDonnell is the capitalist system does work . If you really want to see “ poverty and shocking public services “ look to countries that have tried Marxism ,there’s plenty of them ...success stories not so much .
 
davidwhitehead said:
But why is it crap ? Seemed like a perfectly reasonable summary of McDonnell's position.

Is it the "Lord help us all" bit ?
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It's the idea that socialists want to "topple our nation's way of life". Some of us think that our nation's way of life has been undermined by a greed-based capitalist system and would like to see a fairer society. Paul's post suggested to me that "our way of life" is synonymous with the capitalist ideology and therefore "lord help us" if someone tried to make it fairer. That, in my opinion, is crap.
 
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SlowDownDerek said:
It's the idea that socialists want to "topple our nation's way if life". Some of us think that our nation's way of life has been undermined by a greed-based capitalist system and would like to see a fairer society. Paul's post suggested to me that "our way of life" is synonymous with the capitalist ideology and therefore "lord help us" if someone tried to make it fairer. That, in my opinion, is crap.
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Just looked at Paul Franks post , cant understand what got to so fired up to be honest ....I know your a Labour voter but can you honestly say you would be happy with Corbyn ,McDonnell , Abbot and Thornberry at the helm , because I just can’t see those four winning a national election .
 
SlowDownDerek said:
It's the idea that socialists want to "topple our nation's way if life". Some of us think that our nation's way of life has been undermined by a greed-based capitalist system and would like to see a fairer society. Paul's post suggested to me that "our way of life" is synonymous with the capitalist ideology and therefore "lord help us" if someone tried to make it fairer. That, in my opinion, is crap.
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But it’s fair to say our country has always been a free enterprise capitalist country with some soft socialism thrown in when it was really needed ,it’s never been even close to Marxist .
 
wallmth said:
But in the midst of a crisis when people were losing their homes and giant banks were hanging on by a thread he says “ I’ve been waiting for this for a generation “ ok it may have been tongue in cheek but do you think as a Chancellor he should be having these Marxist attitudes .
It’s not a “Tory”capitalist system it’s just capitalist . The problem for the likes of McDonnell is the capitalist system does work . If you really want to see “ poverty and shocking public services “ look to countries that have tried Marxism ,there’s plenty of them ...success stories not so much .
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wallmth said:
Just looked at Paul Franks post , cant understand what got to so fired up to be honest ....I know your a Labour voter but can you honestly say you would be happy with Corbyn ,McDonnell , Abbot and Thornberry at the helm , because I just can’t see those four winning a national election .
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Perhaps he knew it was coming for a generation. I think any chancellor needs to be aware of the likelihood of the western world entering the post-capitalist era. It's not sustainable long-term for a whole host of reasons - not least climate change and widening inequality once an economy reaches maturity.

I'm not the biggest fan of them as individuals but I'm definitely a supporter of their ideologies to make this country fairer so yes, they'll do me.
 
SlowDownDerek said:
It's the idea that socialists want to "topple our nation's way if life". Some of us think that our nation's way of life has been undermined by a greed-based capitalist system and would like to see a fairer society. Paul's post suggested to me that "our way of life" is synonymous with the capitalist ideology and therefore "lord help us" if someone tried to make it fairer. That, in my opinion, is crap.
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That's an interesting discussion, something I've often wondered about. When you say "fairer", what do you have in mind ? A free market system with enough state intervention to curb the worst excesses of untrammelled capitalism ?
 
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davidwhitehead said:
That's an interesting discussion, something I've often wondered about. When you say "fairer", what do you have in mind ? A free market system with enough state intervention to curb the worst excesses of untrammelled capitalism ?
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Yeah, I would probably be along those lines and not as drastic as someone like McDonnell but who knows what's required.

I agree with much of modern political thinking in that capitalism is coming to an end because of the inherent inequalities it contains. In this country it is made worse by the fact that house price wealth skews the distribution of wealth that much that we no longer have a system where youngsters are able to work hard and generate wealth like they used to. Unfortunately your skills and efforts are less important than your parent's wealth these days, and I think that is economically and politically unsustainable (link included to prevent claims of hypocrisy after having a go at Paul for making unsubstantiated claims).

There's some good examples of potential post-capitalist systems in the Wikipedia link below.


https://www.businessinsider.com/parents-determine-child-success-income-inequality-2014-1

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-capitalism?wprov=sfla1
 
SlowDownDerek said:
My posts may be b*llocks but very rarely unsubstantiated.

I'll give Paul one thing though. At least his post was clear and one could understand the point he was making. As opposed to meaningless drivel with no discernible point, repeated over and over again for years on end.

Tell us some more about how currencies work Jim.:rofl:
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Obviously your own harshest critic.....

A simple intro,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency
 
Lets face it...John Mcdonnell.is a bit fruit n Nut.!

Theoretically the Marxist thing can work on paper....and yes Capitalism is greed orientated...we all know those facts....but as we saw in Roumania with Ceausescu.. the top end people in Communist based systems will do the greed and ostentation thing.. ..I saw the results of this visiting Constanta ..seeing an orphanage and the general state of the place, shortly after the 89 fall of the the Communist bloc. Not pretty and so very, shockingly sad!
Capitalism though is saturated...but needs someone/ something different and more powerful than J.Mcdonnell to swing wealth back the other way...to challenge the likes of the awful Trump..Marxism aint the answer.
 
mother nature is on the case.....

:utc:
 
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SlowDownDerek said:
I think his post is crap, as it was last time he posted it. He doesn't explain himself so yeah that's exactly what my post says, with a bit of spice thrown in.
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Rather ironic that it’s actually you that’s had to have several attempts to explain your point.

Up until now I thought your recent posts were crap. :) Try substantiating it a bit next time ;)
 
DJ said:
Rather ironic that it’s actually you that’s had to have several attempts to explain your point.

Up until now I thought your recent posts were crap. :) Try substantiating it a bit next time ;)
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I'm certainly fair game for the same criticism I dish out. No complaints from me if you want to say my posts are crap or demand explanations as to what I'm on about.
 
DJ said:
Rather ironic that it’s actually you that’s had to have several attempts to explain your point.

Up until now I thought your recent posts were crap. :) Try substantiating it a bit next time ;)
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I'll get eye strain if SSD's posts get any longer!
 
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