Structadene

Bitzer said:
What evidence of recent years? Apart from ourselves ( fantastic manager ) I don't recall any club getting promotion with a smaller capacity of 20,000 in recent times. If that was the case the premier league would be full of Burton's and Rotherham's. As has been said on this board before Max wouldn't be financing this with anything other than loans. Surely a new and bigger stadium makes his club a better investment in the future if and when another investor shows interest in the club.
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Just looking at the size of ground for clubs that have been promoted and relegated out of the championship in recent years and there appears to be no correlation between ground size and success. As we all know the big bucks aren't related to the size of your ground.
 
red_house said:
Hearts new stand cost £15 million and will earn them £3 million a year...they have built that on a turnover of £7 million ffs......

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...new-15m-stand-will-soon-pay-its-way-bcv8d5fl2

We appear to be between a rock and a hard place...
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I can only read the opening couple of paragraphs but it only talks about possibly increasing turnover by £3 million a year. Turnover isn't the same as profits. And any money borrowed to build the stand will keep accruing interest from day one to the day it is finally paid off. So no-one should go away with idea that the new Hearts stand is going to pay for itself in five years.
 
SlowDownDerek said:
I've heard all the club statements and I stopped believing them a long time ago because they were b*llocks. Last time I heard you say anything on the topic you said the same so make your mind up.

I've answered your questions dozens of times. Over and over again yet it's never remotely sunk in. All infrastructure projects need to be funded one way or another. Usually it's by generating sufficient return on investment. If it doesn't do that then someone is going to have to pay for it and accept that they won't get their money back. Literally every example you come up with fits into one of these categories.

Liverpool's main stand cost £120m and generates an extra £20m per season - an excellent level of return which dwarfs anything we could get and they don't have to worry about relegation and only getting 16k attendances with next to no corporate box income (oh sorry I keep forgetting - it doesn't matter does it?)

Occasionally it can start off as a good investment but go over budget - like Tottenham's ground and arguably Wembley. Spurs now face the prospect of years of belt tightening and possibly losing their manager. These examples don't exactly help make your point though do they?

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...ettino?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

Sky scrapers in London? It's exactly the same mate. Same as it was last time when you mentioned student accommodation in Bournemouth. Same as every other property investment you can come up with - the numbers add up.
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We'll see what happens, you obviously want short term gains and I the opposite for our club. I just don't want to go back to div 1/2 days, which we will if we stay as we are. At the end of the day we've waited over hundred years for our so called legacy to happen and I just want us to sustain a club in the top two divisions and I can't see that happening if we don't have the infrastructure in place and I think the board and eddie know that.
I don't know how you work out that Liverpools increased main stand capacity gives them 20m a year because that simply doesn't add up.
 
bog_standard said:
We'll see what happens, you obviously want short term gains and I the opposite for our club. I just don't want to go back to div 1/2 days, which we will if we stay as we are. At the end of the day we've waited over hundred years for our so called legacy to happen and I just want us to sustain a club in the top two divisions and I can't see that happening if we don't have the infrastructure in place and I think the board and eddie know that.
I don't know how you work out that Liverpools increased main stand capacity gives them 20m a year because that simply doesn't add up.
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I didn't work it out - they did.

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...-seats?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

They also look at their property investment the same way everybody else does:

https://www.thisisanfield.com/2016/...field-expansion-phase-2-not-smart-investment/

You talk about me wanting short term gains whereas you look at long term investment. It's not about what I want at all. I am a fan and the case from a fan's perspective is crystal clear - a bigger ground is what we all want.

I'm explaining to you how property investment works. Everybody looks at it this way - if you can't provide enough return to cover the interest you have to pay on borrowed cash plus compensation for the risk involved the project will not happen. I've not made this up - this is how it works.
 
so, here's a potential solution. First, let's agree that Qatar getting the world cup and the human right record, is poor & that the treatment of labour isn't great.
However, they are building a modular stadium:

We could, in theory, build this on the Dean Court land, and at the end of 25 years, move it.
 
SlowDownDerek said:
I didn't work it out - they did.

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...-seats?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

They also look at their property investment the same way everybody else does:

https://www.thisisanfield.com/2016/...field-expansion-phase-2-not-smart-investment/

You talk about me wanting short term gains whereas you look at long term investment. It's not about what I want at all. I am a fan and the case from a fan's perspective is crystal clear - a bigger ground is what we all want.

I'm explaining to you how property investment works. Everybody looks at it this way - if you can't provide enough return to cover the interest you have to pay on borrowed cash plus compensation for the risk involved the project will not happen. I've not made this up - this is how it works.
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I was saying how cynical I’d become owing to being deceived by the board on several occasions and their piss poor communication skills. That doesn’t mean to say the new stadium isn’t going to happen or at least an expansion.
I’m going to leave this now as we’re never going to agree on a business strategy for this club but I think your strategy isn’t sustainable for the long term and I think eddie or max know that. A football club has got to be about more than just money, attracting players, player retention and more importantly to us, fan base, edde has said this. I bet those three players we signed in the summer were told we’d be having new stadium. With the relegation of burton I think we have the lowest capacity of any of the teams in the top two leagues but you think that’s acceptable to maintain our tinpot infrastructure, it will never be in my opinion but as several people have said I can’t do anything about that. I think we should be looking to the southamptons, readings and brightons of this world, all three have cat 1 accademies and suitable stadiums for the league they are playing in. I agree max would have to be here for the long term or pass it on to another but up until recently I thought that would actually happen, I now have my doubts. I guess that’s where we’re different, you’ve always come across as a glass half empty type person. …… and I bet you voted remain :)
 
Sorry Roger said:
I can only read the opening couple of paragraphs but it only talks about possibly increasing turnover by £3 million a year. Turnover isn't the same as profits. And any money borrowed to build the stand will keep accruing interest from day one to the day it is finally paid off. So no-one should go away with idea that the new Hearts stand is going to pay for itself in five years.
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It was simply a current example of a club building a stand with facilities that would increase their turnover. It states later in the article they are debt free and have no loans so the stand will increase profits. Obviously for us these profits would be tiny compared to the TV money but we're not going to be here forever. That said I think the moment has gone, if we can't afford to even start on the training ground then we can forget ground expansion for the forseeable future adding in the complication of Structadene.
 
I'm a glass half empty person because I think about how things are going to be paid for rather than just having faith and waiting for them to happen? I honestly don't think you will ever understand the point I've been making. A new ground or expansion might happen, hopefully it will, but it will either need them to work out a way of boosting the income it will generate or he will need to take a massive hit. It's not pessimism it's the realities of building things.

What would you say to your kids if they demanded you built a swimming pool in your back garden? Remember, don't be glass half empty about it.
 
red_house said:
It was simply a current example of a club building a stand with facilities that would increase their turnover. It states later in the article they are debt free and have no loans so the stand will increase profits. Obviously for us these profits would be tiny compared to the TV money but we're not going to be here forever. That said I think the moment has gone, if we can't afford to even start on the training ground then we can forget ground expansion for the forseeable future adding in the complication of Structadene.
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The problem is that it could cost us £60m to boost income by £3m per year judging by what Watford, Swansea, West Brom make on a matchday.
 
SlowDownDerek said:
The problem is that it could cost us £60m to boost income by £3m per year judging by what Watford, Swansea, West Brom make on a matchday.
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You are simply looking at ticketing income. If you look at other income as a result of increased capacity (ie hospitality etc ) you will see they are all clearing at least £3 -£5 million a year more than us.
 
red_house said:
You are simply looking at ticketing income. If you look at other income as a result of increased capacity (ie hospitality etc ) you will see they are all clearing at least £3 -£5 million a year more than us.
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I'm looking at matchday income - going from memory tbf so I may be a bit out on some of them but we currently make £5m and they make £8m. I seem to recall Palace make £10.5m and Southampton £20m. Who knows what we could generate - we do have fairly expensive season tickets so it might creep up to £10m but there must surely be a trade off for ticket prices against attendance once it gets bigger than 22,000 or so. I've no idea what the potential corporate earnings are beyond what we earn now and I'd imagine that would be the key to making it work. All we know is the club did some research on this then subsequently shelves their plans so it doesn't look good unless they have other plans they aren't telling us about.
 
You need to calm down SDD, there’s no right or wrong here it’s all about opinions..….. as they say there’s more than one way to skin a cat.
 
bog_standard said:
You need to calm down SDD, there’s no right or wrong here it’s all about opinions..….. as they say there’s more than one way to skin a cat.
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Lol, I'm pretty calm about these things thanks mate - kind of the point I'm making tbh. These are level-headed rather than emotional decisions.

I'd suggest most investors would disagree with you about there being no right or wrong. I guess there is more than one way to skin a cat but if one of them involves going bankrupt because you've used your heart instead of your head then they is that really an alternative?
 
SlowDownDerek said:
I'm looking at matchday income - going from memory tbf so I may be a bit out on some of them but we currently make £5m and they make £8m. I seem to recall Palace make £10.5m and Southampton £20m. Who knows what we could generate - we do have fairly expensive season tickets so it might creep up to £10m but there must surely be a trade off for ticket prices against attendance once it gets bigger than 22,000 or so. I've no idea what the potential corporate earnings are beyond what we earn now and I'd imagine that would be the key to making it work. All we know is the club did some research on this then subsequently shelves their plans so it doesn't look good unless they have other plans they aren't telling us about.
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Wouldn't they of done research before they said they were going to build a new stadium
 
SlowDownDerek said:
I'm looking at matchday income - going from memory tbf so I may be a bit out on some of them but we currently make £5m and they make £8m. I seem to recall Palace make £10.5m and Southampton £20m. Who knows what we could generate - we do have fairly expensive season tickets so it might creep up to £10m but there must surely be a trade off for ticket prices against attendance once it gets bigger than 22,000 or so. I've no idea what the potential corporate earnings are beyond what we earn now and I'd imagine that would be the key to making it work. All we know is the club did some research on this then subsequently shelves their plans so it doesn't look good unless they have other plans they aren't telling us about.
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I'm struggling to see where your analogy that it could cost £60 million to make £3 million comes from. I've just given an example with Hearts. They have built one stand and expect to make a further £3 million a year as a result of it. The stand cost £15 million. That is an example of how a stand can improve turnover isn't it ?

If SD won't sell and we won't move then surely building the South stand will be a commercially viable option for the remainder of the lease. It shouldn't really have to pay for itself with our current income should it?
 
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afcb_rednblack said:
I don't agree. It would more than likely depend on an investors vision and strategy (and how this might align with other investments), commercial foresight, appetite for risk etc.,
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Sure but they will all look at the bottom line - that may be different for each investor for the reasons you give but it is inescapable.
 
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