Non: Historical Statues

Druss_the_Legend said:
I think my views on religion in general are well known on here. That doesnt mean I want the Vatican pulled down. I've visited it, I've appreciated the art while also understanding the juxtaposition of gold leaf everywhere while people sleep against the walls outside.

Statues are a celebration, an exultation of the the person they depict. I dont understand how people find the difference so difficult.

A couple of examples....when the Iraq war was over, they toppled the Saddam Hussain statues as they no longer held him in reverence or were told to admire him. They didnt bulldoze the airport named Saddam Hussain with code SDA. They simply renamed it and changed its code.

To this day, you can visit Hitlers Eagles nest. Its well worth it if you get the chance. What you wont find is a statue to him outside as the building, no matter who or how it was built, does not celebrate the man.

I hope that has helped a bit?
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not really
blah blah blah
Augustus, just a yes or no answer, is it on your hit list?
[your sort have a statue-toppling list, right?]
if not, why not; too old or not British enough for you?
 
Druss_the_Legend said:
I think my views on religion in general are well known on here. That doesnt mean I want the Vatican pulled down. I've visited it, I've appreciated the art while also understanding the juxtaposition of gold leaf everywhere while people sleep against the walls outside.

Statues are a celebration, an exultation of the the person they depict. I dont understand how people find the difference so difficult.

A couple of examples....when the Iraq war was over, they toppled the Saddam Hussain statues as they no longer held him in reverence or were told to admire him. They didnt bulldoze the airport named Saddam Hussain with code SDA. They simply renamed it and changed its code.

To this day, you can visit Hitlers Eagles nest. Its well worth it if you get the chance. What you wont find is a statue to him outside as the building, no matter who or how it was built, does not celebrate the man.

I hope that has helped a bit?
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It should help...thats a bloody intelligent post....I hope that me saying that doesn't discredit your credibility...because its got a good and angular depth of quality !
 
Druss_the_Legend said:
I think my views on religion in general are well known on here. That doesnt mean I want the Vatican pulled down. I've visited it, I've appreciated the art while also understanding the juxtaposition of gold leaf everywhere while people sleep against the walls outside.

Statues are a celebration, an exultation of the the person they depict. I dont understand how people find the difference so difficult.

A couple of examples....when the Iraq war was over, they toppled the Saddam Hussain statues as they no longer held him in reverence or were told to admire him. They didnt bulldoze the airport named Saddam Hussain with code SDA. They simply renamed it and changed its code.

To this day, you can visit Hitlers Eagles nest. Its well worth it if you get the chance. What you wont find is a statue to him outside as the building, no matter who or how it was built, does not celebrate the man.

I hope that has helped a bit?
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I don't think that pulling down statues of Queen Victoria or Queen Elizabeth II can be justified by comparisons with Hitler and Hussain.
 
SlowDownDerek said:
From the perspective of indigenous people in North America I'm not sure that's true.
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Genuinely, you believe that the average indigenous Canadian will feel about Elizabeth II in the same way as the average Jew or Pole will feel about Hitler? If so, I would have to say that their perspective is skewed to the point of insanity. I have met one or two indigenous Canadians who certainly didn't give that impression.
 
MB1980 said:
Swap them out for eriktheviking?
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Yeah, right ....... ;)

No, it's just such a complex and involved topic for us that off-the-cuff suggestions just don't do it justice.

About 5% of Canadians identify as Aboriginal. In three groups .... Indians, Metis and Inuit. Each with their own language, culture, laws and spiritual beliefs. Their cultures are in many ways quite beautiful, with great respect for the land and flora and fauna.

The perception of the Indigenous/aboriginal people depends a lot on where you grew up. It is much different in BC to the Prairies to the East. The North is something else altogether.

If you watch the videos periodically put out by regional or national chiefs, they rarely turn to anger (there are some firebrands but not primarily). Most often, they are tinged with sadness, a call for reconciliation, and a demand that treaty rights be respected.

Indigenous people suffer a unthinkable degree of poverty (something like 25%) and poor health care. The federal budget sets aside $17 billion in 2020-1 for indigenous programmes to address health, education and economic development.

From here, I could get into pre-Canada atrocities on both sides and subsequent reparations, but as I said, it is extremely complicated even for someone who lived 70 years here and I don't have the smarts to convey it properly.
 
Toronto John said:
Yeah, right ....... ;)

No, it's just such a complex and involved topic for us that off-the-cuff suggestions just don't do it justice.

About 5% of Canadians identify as Aboriginal. In three groups .... Indians, Metis and Inuit. Each with their own language, culture, laws and spiritual beliefs. Their cultures are in many ways quite beautiful, with great respect for the land and flora and fauna.

The perception of the Indigenous/aboriginal people depends a lot on where you grew up. It is much different in BC to the Prairies to the East. The North is something else altogether.

If you watch the videos periodically put out by regional or national chiefs, they rarely turn to anger (there are some firebrands but not primarily). Most often, they are tinged with sadness, a call for reconciliation, and a demand that treaty rights be respected.

Indigenous people suffer a unthinkable degree of poverty (something like 25%) and poor health care. The federal budget sets aside $17 billion in 2020-1 for indigenous programmes to address health, education and economic development.

From here, I could get into pre-Canada atrocities on both sides and subsequent reparations, but as I said, it is extremely complicated even for someone who lived 70 years here and I don't have the smarts to convey it properly.
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Great post
There will no doubt be people on here with a view far from that of the indigenous people, but it could be said their opinion doesn't matter .
But history is full of debate about when the (border) line was drawn. Im sure there's a reason why indigenous people are under skilled, poor and of ill health compared to white man age equivalents.. And imsue it isn't because they were given equal rights, benefits or opportunities
 
DJ said:
The pulling them down trend continues...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1410922449277841410
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Numpties !
Victoria didn't ask to be born or inherit the Crown ..and she didn't kill anyone !
She was probably a miserable old bugger but that's about it.
I doubt if she knew that Statue was there....and of course is not aware of it being pulled down now!
I bet half the people pulling it down were not part of the indigenous population of Canada....just thrill-seeking local yobs !
 
GaryRB said:
Great post
There will no doubt be people on here with a view far from that of the indigenous people, but it could be said their opinion doesn't matter .
But history is full of debate about when the (border) line was drawn. Im sure there's a reason why indigenous people are under skilled, poor and of ill health compared to white man age equivalents.. And imsue it isn't because they were given equal rights, benefits or opportunities
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I would agree with that comment. But for many indigenous people, the opportunities of the "great American dream", 5000 sf house, three cars in the driveway, and superfast internet are not the yardstick by which they would measure success. Even among those who reach higher education, many do not aspire to corporate Canada and a corner office; the stated objective for many are pathways to betterment of the lives of their people, through degrees in law, education and health care. Entrepreneurial pursuits are valued, as are degrees in the arts which can promote their culture. They are recognized in the Canadian Charter as distinct groups.

Those are the opportunities and benefits that they want, which in turn could result in a healthier lifestyle for future generations. But there has been a huge disconnect between the need and the funding required. The latest budgets do try to address some of this.
 
Has nothing to do with the Queen yet they're pulling down statues of her...

Yet the same people probably desire strong female figureheads...
 
The Queen lives off the wealth created by the plunder on indigenous people and their lands, not only in Canada . Never once she has come out and apologised for what went on., even though she lives a life of luxury due to the plunder.

As for the Qjueen being a strong female figurehead, you only have to look at the family she has brought up, to see she was an extremely weak individual. Andrew a paedophile, Charles a paedophile lover, Anne with a criminal record for allowing her dogs to terrorise children in a park,
 
Rodmorg said:
Has nothing to do with the Queen yet they're pulling down statues of her...

Yet the same people probably desire strong female figureheads...
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All over the place this. If she's a figurehead then it has got something to do with her hasn't it. You can't have it both ways.
 
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