Brooks and Kelly injuries

SlowDownDerek said:
He's too busy trying to blame every problem on the same thing that he's completely lost the plot.

These players get paid tens, sometimes hundreds of thousands per week. Top medical care, specialist consultants, rehabilitation, etc. cost a fortune. The financial risk of relegation because an injury crisis affects results... etc etc ... There is an absolute fortune at stake. The idea that the money men at the club would put up with these injuries just because Eddie wanted his pals in place is absurd. Add to that the idea that Eddie would naïvley plod along year after year taking injuries on the chin without thinking that he might get some expert advice on how to help solve the problem. It's as if Neil is suggesting Eddie isn't the most pissed off person on the planet about AFCB's sustained injury crisis.

Add to all of that, as Klaus has pointed out, we DO have a load of decent experience in our medical and sports science department - throw in a decent side point that it is doubtful that Neil has the first clue what skills they have or haven't got (do any of us?).

Neil's talking complete b*llocks on this one.
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So what you are saying is that our appalling run of ligament injuries which is well documented is completely coincidental. Nothing at all to do with the fact ligaments are prone to damage when overworked?
 
klaus_afcb said:
I don't disagree that our training may have something to do with our injuries - even the club suspects so, hence the investigation into training. But jumping to the conclusion that staff experience is the problem is where you lose me. I know we've covered this before, but our club doctor was head of medical for the Springbok Rugby Team, our strength coach and one of the physios also worked at top rugby clubs, Johnny King from the medical team spent two years at a sports medicine facility for elite athletes in Doha (specialising in foot and ankle injuries), etc.

For a club of our stature, that's already quite a lot of top-level experience, particularly in the medical department. But also, where are the additional "elite" coaches and staff that we should be employing? Mostly at the elite clubs I imagine.

I think questioning training is fine, but jumping to conclusions on staff experience just doesn't add up.
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facts
 
Monmouthred said:
Blimey Neil. You often make good points, but really?
The players have played 1 1/2 games each. Most of the top clubs have been traipsing all round the world.

As for the elite athletes, we have top sports science people etc

Our team stats have changed significantly over the seasons, with less possession and running, which rather contradicts your point about the first season.

As for the coaching and transfers I think Eddie and his background team have done bloody well all in all. I dont really get your obsession with it - for example Mark Spitz coach famously couldn't even swim.
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How do you explain the fact that even though we play no cup games and give our players two breaks a season that they have long runs where they look shattered and exhausted while other teams who play through the cups and don’t jet off to Dubai twice look fresh?

Also why do we pick up those stat busting figures in ligament injuries.

I’d say both of those point to overworked players. That’s surely a fair assessment? From there I understand it becomes subjective but you won’t change my mind that having a load of league one players who had to work so hard to maximise their ability setting the agenda for elite players is mismatched. When we stop looking exhausted for long spells each season and have an on par record on strains/ligaments with other teams I will change my mind.

I also know from inside sources that some players we sign just can’t cope with what we demand of them in a training regime that has intensified if anything from what was already a strict one in the championship. That’s why many don’t play for months after they sign. They were deemed fit enough at the clubs they came from though. Defoe couldn’t get close to it for example. Nor Rico, Mousset,Mings not to mention all the ones that came and went early doors. We set extreme standards. There are pluses of that. There are also bi-products and we are seeing them.
 
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Neil Dawson said:
It isn’t coincidence, although some people don’t like hearing it on here.

We work our players to the bone. This is so evidenced through the fact they always finish the season exhausted despite not having played any cup games and having gone abroad twice to relax. Other squads play through the cup competitons and Europe in some cases and still look fresher than us come April.

Overstretched bodies become tired and more injury prone and muscles/ligaments become stretched.

People used to say back to me it was the only way our less talented squad could survive. They may have had a point in our first season but since then I’m not sure we need to work too hard. And after another preseason of lots of friendlies where the team splits to play full 90s and hot weather camps the injuries rack up again.

We have nobody in the coaching squad who was or had the experience of working with elite athletes. Still (usual suspects) keep ignoring the evidence and believe your own blinkered faith.
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:fish:
 
I stubbed my toe on the stairs this morning. I blame it on the instructor at the local gym. He's over-trained me, and doesn't have the experience of working in any other gym.:Fingers:
 
SlowDownDerek said:
Whilst there may be some truth in working our players to the bone what on earth would having a player with top level experience in coaching do for our injury record?
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Neil Dawson said:
So what you are saying is that our appalling run of ligament injuries which is well documented is completely coincidental. Nothing at all to do with the fact ligaments are prone to damage when overworked?
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Does it look like I'm saying that? What I've said is pretty clear - your 'eddie's mates' theory is dodgy at the best of times but to blame injuries on it is ludicrous.

How do you see it going down Neil? Do you think that Eddie, the owner and directors just shrug their shoulders at all the injuries? Do the directors pluck up the courage to say something to Eddie who tells them to mind their own business because he likes playing his best defender in midfield in the premier league?

It's b*llocks. We've employed loads of people in sports science since promotion. There's absolutely no doubt that they will be looking to solve the problem with whatever help they can get.

Your theory defies all known logic.
 
Neil Dawson said:
How do you explain the fact that even though we play no cup games and give our players two breaks a season that they have long runs where they look shattered and exhausted while other teams who play through the cups and don’t jet off to Dubai twice look fresh?

Also why do we pick up those stat busting figures in ligament injuries.

I’d say both of those point to overworked players. That’s surely a fair assessment? From there I understand it becomes subjective but you won’t change my mind that having a load of league one players who had to work so hard to maximise their ability setting the agenda for elite players is mismatched. When we stop looking exhausted for long spells each season and have an on par record on strains/ligaments with other teams I will change my mind.

I also know from inside sources that some players we sign just can’t cope with what we demand of them in a training regime that has intensified if anything from what was already a strict one in the championship. That’s why many don’t play for months after they sign. They were deemed fit enough at the clubs they came from though. Defoe couldn’t get close to it for example. Nor Rico, Mousset,Mings not to mention all the ones that came and went early doors. We set extreme standards. There are pluses of that. There are also bi-products and we are seeing them.
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I think all we have established here is that you don't really have a clue what you're talking about.
 
We have a major problem now - continuing from season to season. My close friend - a leading sports doctor and AFCB fan - says it’s highly likely the trading regime is too intensive and relentless, especially in pre-season. Also warns that there will be further problems unless the club modifies the training policy.
 
SlowDownDerek said:
I think all we have established here is that you don't really have a clue what you're talking about.
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What’s your theory then Del as to why we look so shattered four months in and have so many injuries despite playing fewer games. Bad luck is it? Rather than chucking insults like you do at most people on most threads why not join the debate and answer some questions.
 
langham said:
We have a major problem now - continuing from season to season. My close friend - a leading sports doctor and AFCB fan - says it’s highly likely the trading regime is too intensive and relentless, especially in pre-season. Also warns that there will be further problems unless the club modifies the training policy.
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Careful Langham. The foaming mouth apparatchiks will be along to say they have proof you don’t know what you are talking about despite all the evidence staring them in the face
 
Red Sky said:
Comfortably mid-table last season. Nearly half the injuries of Manure and fewer than City, Spurs, Liverpool, Arsenal. All teams with experienced coaches and the best sports science gurus in the world.

I've yet to see the stats that tell me we are doing something radically wrong.

https://www.90min.com/posts/6389205...-each-club-suffered-during-the-2018-19-season
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Lies, damned lies and statistics. We also top the table for three years in the injury most linked to over training (ligament) as opposed to contact injuries which are more about luck

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This thread is about the injuries to Brooks and Kelly. Neither injury appears to me to have been down to anything other than unfortunate circumstances, good old-fashioned bad luck. Nobody at the club could know that Arter would crunch Kelly in training ( including Arter himself ! ) and Brooks' twisting of his ankle looked totally innocuous at the time and is the sort of thing which nine times out of ten the player would run off. I really can't see how the staff could have done anything to prevent these injuries.
If Brooks had a long standing ankle problem which he was continuing to play with then maybe there could be some criticism for not dealing with that. But for all we know currently, this latest injury is not related to any previous one. The good news is that he will now get the best treatment and if there is any repair work needing to be done there, it can be done and when he does come back he should come back with a stronger ankle.
Definitely a massive stretch to criticise the sports science staff on the basis of these two unfortunate incidents in my opinion.
 
langham said:
We have a major problem now - continuing from season to season. My close friend - a leading sports doctor and AFCB fan - says it’s highly likely the trading regime is too intensive and relentless, especially in pre-season. Also warns that there will be further problems unless the club modifies the training policy.
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Has he offered his opinion to the club direct?
 
thegazzyb said:
This thread is about the injuries to Brooks and Kelly. Neither injury appears to me to have been down to anything other than unfortunate circumstances, good old-fashioned bad luck. Nobody at the club could know that Arter would crunch Kelly in training ( including Arter himself ! ) and Brooks' twisting of his ankle looked totally innocuous at the time and is the sort of thing which nine times out of ten the player would run off. I really can't see how the staff could have done anything to prevent these injuries.
If Brooks had a long standing ankle problem which he was continuing to play with then maybe there could be some criticism for not dealing with that. But for all we know currently, this latest injury is not related to any previous one. The good news is that he will now get the best treatment and if there is any repair work needing to be done there, it can be done and when he does come back he should come back with a stronger ankle.
Definitely a massive stretch to criticise the sports science staff on the basis of these two unfortunate incidents in my opinion.
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You are missing the fact that overworked ligaments become more prone to going, like a stretched elastic band becomes weaker. So yes, the incident where it occurs might look like the cause but it’s not, it’s the symptom. Ask any medical expert.

My clinically obese brother in law stepped off a high kerb and put his knee out. The doctor told him that the pressure his knee had been under for years eventually gave way. No doubt you, SDD and others would be blaming the kerb as that was the incident...
 
Neil Dawson said:
Careful Langham. The foaming mouth apparatchiks will be along to say they have proof you don’t know what you are talking about despite all the evidence staring them in the face
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I thought Langham was taking the piss ;)

Perhaps they can clarify.
 
Not sure if it adds to the discussion but ex-AFCB youth player Alex Parsons is giving summer training sessions to a couple of PL players to keep them in tip top shape:

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/fo...tars-during-their-summer-breaks-a4196536.html

Sometimes the best coaches can be people who never made it. That doesn't mean to say there isn't a point to be made about the number of Howe-as-a-player-era ex-players who are part of the coaching team. I can certainly accept that a number of them are highly talented. I'd be surprised if they are all the best we can do though.
 
Neil Dawson said:
What’s your theory then Del as to why we look so shattered four months in and have so many injuries despite playing fewer games. Bad luck is it? Rather than chucking insults like you do at most people on most threads why not join the debate and answer some questions.
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Probably overtraining, which isn't Steve Fletcher or Steve Purches' department. I'd bet a lot of money that between Eddie, the directors and the medical/sports science departments that they've been working round the clock on a solution for years now. Obviously there will be a trade off because we probably need the intensity to reach the performance levels we do.
 
It's interesting watching the videos on AFCB TV of the medical and fitness checks that new players go through once they are here. Some of the measurements they take to assess each players physical condition and capabilities are quite extraordinary.
To suggest that these guys don't know what they are doing is very insulting towards them.
To play in the League we are in everyone has to be as fit as they possibly can be because it is so competitive and demanding.
The list of last seasons injuries by club is also fascinating. The three clubs that suffered most were Man Utd. Spurs and Liverpool, and even Man City and Arsenal suffered more than we did with more or less unlimited resources to employ the best medical talent. I wonder why they haven't employed better medical staff to stop this happening?
I would also be amazed if Wolves manage to come through next season with the same amount of injuries as last season.
 
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