Brooks and Kelly injuries

SlowDownDerek said:
Probably overtraining, which isn't Steve Fletcher or Steve Purches' department. I'd bet a lot of money that between Eddie, the directors and the medical/sports science departments that they've been working round the clock on a solution for years now. Obviously there will be a trade off because we probably need the intensity to reach the performance levels we do.
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I don’t think we do need to anymore. Yes the promotion side needed to work harder than other teams because players like Surman and Gosling need to run to make up for lack of ability to hold on to the ball, or chasing back after they have given it away. I’m not sure Brooks needed to be trained the same way, or Defoe. We should now be able to train the same levels as other teams.

We should be able to play in cups, we shouldn’t look absolutely wrecked for eight game stretches.
 
Neil Dawson said:
You are missing the fact that overworked ligaments become more prone to going, like a stretched elastic band becomes weaker. So yes, the incident where it occurs might look like the cause but it’s not, it’s the symptom. Ask any medical expert.

My clinically obese brother in law stepped off a high kerb and put his knee out. The doctor told him that the pressure his knee had been under for years eventually gave way. No doubt you, SDD and others would be blaming the kerb as that was the incident...
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But I don't buy into the overworked ligaments theory either. Our first team players only have the league games to worry about. They won't have to play in Europe and they almost certainly won't play in the cup competitions. Our running stats are no longer significantly higher than other teams so I fail to see where the players are being overworked. I'm pretty sure they only do "light training" in the days leading up to matches to aid their recovery from "heavy training", Eddie would hardly flog them to within an inch of collapse a couple of days before they play a match.
I don't see the players being overworked to be honest. With the physio and other assistance we provide, they should be able to cope quite comfortably.
I'm sure the sports science team are very well informed with regard to ligaments, how to strengthen them, exercises to keep them in good condition etc. It is insulting to suggest that they must be naive about ligaments and are not doing enough to prevent these injuries. I'm sure they are all over it, trying their best to prevent these injuries from happening and taking all necessary precautions. Sometimes these things can come out of the blue and I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt on that point.
 
No need to insult anyone at the club - Eddie has a top team. But our anxieties about injuries are justified - as season after season it’s ligaments and joints that cause the problems. Would be good to hear a comment from the club, especially the Sports Science people.
 
thegazzyb said:
But I don't buy into the overworked ligaments theory either. Our first team players only have the league games to worry about. They won't have to play in Europe and they almost certainly won't play in the cup competitions. Our running stats are no longer significantly higher than other teams so I fail to see where the players are being overworked. I'm pretty sure they only do "light training" in the days leading up to matches to aid their recovery from "heavy training", Eddie would hardly flog them to within an inch of collapse a couple of days before they play a match.
I don't see the players being overworked to be honest. With the physio and other assistance we provide, they should be able to cope quite comfortably.
I'm sure the sports science team are very well informed with regards to ligaments, how to strengthen them, exercises to keep them in good condition etc. It is insulting to suggest that they must be naive about ligaments and are not doing enough to prevent these injuries. I'm sure they are all over it, trying their best to prevent these injuries from happening and taking all necessary precautions. Sometimes these things can come out of the blue and I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt on that point.
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Do you not think though that the fact as you point out that we don’t play in cup games or Europe but we have stretches in seasons where we look exhausted and games where we finish dead on our feet (which we all agree) and suffer so many non impact injuries is odd? It points to one of two solutions. We are unfit or we are overworked. I don’t think it’s the former.
 
Two people now saying it’s insulting to people at the club? Really? Pointing out facts is insulting now!

I’ve ran sales teams. They need to be on it and cheerful all day as those of you that know sales teams will know. If they were 30% off sick and the ones that were there were knackered and miserable come 3pm I’d love to say to my boss ‘I find it really insulting you are pointing these facts out to me, don’t you know I spend all day analysing why this is’
 
Neil Dawson said:
Lies, damned lies and statistics. We also top the table for three years in the injury most linked to over training (ligament) as opposed to contact injuries which are more about luck
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As I say, I haven't seen the statistics to prove we are doing something radically wrong. I'm interested to see the table we top for ligament injuries though, if you have a source (genuinely, not being facetious)?
 
yesyescherry said:
so we look knackered after 4 months of the season every season do we?

must've been watching a different team
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We have spells in every season where we have clearly shot our bolt and look dead on our feet. Sometimes it’s December, sometimes
Feb and March. It’s not poor form it’s lack of energy. It’s been well talked about on here. Look at last year’s run after our blistering start had taken it out of us. How many games did we win in that 20 game period.
 
Red Sky said:
As I say, I haven't seen the statistics to prove we are doing something radically wrong. I'm interested to see the table we top for ligament injuries though, if you have a source (genuinely, not being facetious)?
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It was on Match of the Day. It sparked a thread on here after, Shearer discussed it. Following Francis and Cook. They put a stat on the screen and it was in some papers too.
 
Neil Dawson said:
We have spells in every season where we have clearly shot our bolt and look dead on our feet. Sometimes it’s December, sometimes
Feb and March. It’s not poor form it’s lack of energy. It’s been well talked about on here. Look at last year’s run after our blistering start had taken it out of us. How many games did we win in that 20 game period.
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I agree that we struggle when there is a fixture pile-up and that is mainly due to the fact that we have always had limited options with regard to rotation of the players. Once we get back to the usual rhythm of one game a week our energy levels seem to come back to normal. We will need more squad depth to power through busy times like Christmas and New Year but we are trying to improve that a bit at a time. Unfortunately we are still a long way away from having two first teams, like the top clubs can field. So I agree, when we have too many games with little break in-between our performance levels tend to drop a bit. I think that's understandable though. It's where we are at the moment and it is limited to one or two spells per season.
 
thegazzyb said:
I agree that we struggle when there is a fixture pile-up and that is mainly due to the fact that we have always had limited options with regard to rotation of the players. Once we get back to the usual rhythm of one game a week our energy levels seem to come back to normal. We will need more squad depth to power through busy times like Christmas and New Year but we are trying to improve that a bit at a time. Unfortunately we are still a long way away from having two first teams, like the top clubs can field. So I agree, when we have too many games with little break in-between our performance levels tend to drop a bit. I think that's understandable though. It's where we are at the moment and it is limited to one or two spells per season.
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They are long spells though and other teams without two first teams, Wolves,Watford didn’t suffer them and also got to cup final/semi final using their first team.
 
There can be a problem behind all the injuries without it being explicitly someones “fault” you know. I’m sure EH has far more insight than us over what’s happening and is actively looking for an explanation. He is also probably more annoyed by it than any of us.

I do find it a bit strange that people are denying there is a problem SOMEWHERE. It’s not a normal amount of long term injuries is it?

You should all come and sit on this fence with me; it’s comfy.
 
Neil Dawson said:
...we have stretches in seasons where we look exhausted and games where we finish dead on our feet...
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I've thought quite a bit about this. I think it could be a lack of pragmatism.

Example: a lot of PL teams will see a second goal conceded and decide the game is gone. "Ok lads, sit back and try to avoid conceding any more, conserve a bit of energy and go again next week."

Bournemouth concede a second goal (often in the 8th or 9th minute :throw:) and spend the entirity of the remaining 82 minutes running about like idiots trying to get back into the game. Every single week. Regardless of who it's against. It wouldn't be pretty or exciting but what do we want?

We basically never take it easy. I feel like it's why we often lose matches well into the second half when we've scored early. We try and win the game in the first 20 minutes. By the time we get to 70 and 80 minutes we're getting nervous, panicking and making mistakes while the opposition have been biding their time, remembering that it's the score at the end that counts. They have something left in the tank while we're knackered and it doesn't help when some of our players have absolutely zero composure (Gosling vs Wimbledon and that second half performance in general is a macro example of a larger problem we've had for some time).

Just my 2p.
 
Neil Dawson said:
It was on Match of the Day. It sparked a thread on here after, Shearer discussed it. Following Francis and Cook. They put a stat on the screen and it was in some papers too.
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Interesting, though I can't find anywhere online.
As much as I don’t doubt Shearer gets all his data from verified sources I’ll continue to reserve judgement until I see the statistics in black and white.

As a fan it certainly feels like we get a lot of these ligament injuries, but I’d like to see the trend over the last 3 years and how it compares with other clubs before I buy into the theory that we are far worse off.

Then it is another leap again to say it is the experience of the training staff. There are a multitude of factors which could lead to a spate of such injuries. There could be something in the intensity of the training, that is correct. Number of minutes played too no doubt. Correlation does not necessarily equal causation though.

The fact that we were midtable for injuries last year tells me that the staff did a decent job overall at keeping the players conditioned for the workload they needed to perform. This pre-season is worrying but from a statistical point of view the data trend over a longer period is more reliable.
 
It’s fsirly obvious that Eddie works them too hard, or something is wrong in the training.

I can see why he would since he wants this super fit squad that can fight for every ball and be first to every 50/50 but what ends up happening is so many players get injured then just has a negative effect on people like Lerma who towards the end of last season was carrying that central midfield therefore in the end was actually a detriment to his performance.

All the players mentioned; Daniels, S Cook, Kelly etc, I didn’t even know they had injuries but apparently were all done towards the back end of last season so all 3+ months out.

We get far too many long term injuries and it’s starting to become abit of a joke
 
wimborne cherries said:
It’s fsirly obvious that Eddie works them too hard, or something is wrong in the training.

I can see why he would since he wants this super fit squad that can fight for every ball and be first to every 50/50 but what ends up happening is so many players get injured then just has a negative effect on people like Lerma who towards the end of last season was carrying that central midfield therefore in the end was actually a detriment to his performance.

All the players mentioned; Daniels, S Cook, Kelly etc, I didn’t even know they had injuries but apparently were all done towards the back end of last season so all 3+ months out.

We get far too many long term injuries and it’s starting to become abit of a joke
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We were pushing everyone on empty at the back end of last season because we were so short.
Knocks and injuries gained earlier in the season are cumulative and compounding later in the season.
The summer break is supposed to be the reset button, however we seem to have carried over all of last season knocks and niggles.
It makes these pre season injuries concerning for the future of this season too.
 
My feeling is we do a lot of weights in training. I’m not sure if this would cause more injuries but I think it would explain why we look lethargic at certain points of the season.

Last year our style of play wasn’t about heavy pressing for 90 minutes, it was explosive counter attacks. Weight training gives players the power for that explosiveness.

I’ve no proof for my theory other than what I see with my own eyes. Take Rico and Ibe for example. Initially I thought they looked overweight but I think it’s just upper body muscle. Even Fraser looks very powerfully built for his size.
 
To follow on from what @simonhpieman said, and to repeat what I said on here last year around the time of the same argument, I think you can all agree that you are all right! It's unlikely that any one reason is the cause behind all our injuries, rather a relatively unique coming together of lots of factors. In stats terms we would be looking at ANOVA and correlation and we'd probably be able to pull out a load of things. For example:

  1. We sign players with a back story, maybe some that other clubs won't touch because they are injury prone. If they were bullet proof we couldn't afford them
  2. We never give up and chase for 90 minutes (as Simon said above).
  3. We have to work hard every game. Man City know that for at least 50% of their games, they just need to turn up.
  4. Our style of play is quite technical. Twisty, turny, runny, stoppy, starty. It's not hold a position and hoof it.
  5. We flog them to death in training.
  6. Our manager likes to play the same players in runs, he's not a tinkerman
  7. Our facilities are probably still a bit more basic compared to some. I think Man City have a big indoor arena where they can train and model the exact conditions (temperature, humidity)
  8. Other stuff I know nothing about
And then when you add all that up you get the cherry on the cake:
  • Injuries are a positive feedback loop. They more you have, probably the more you will get as you play players when you'd like to rest them but can't.
To change the output we need to either change the input or change the factors - pay more money, play a different way, rotate squad more...... and I expect the boss doesn't want to do that.

I also expect there is a subjective perception at play too. We tend to remember the exceptional events, rather than non-events. It's easier for us to remember the clear times when someone is injured rather than the non-event of the seasons they stayed fit for 40 games (fraser, ake, cook....). I can name you the rainy days in July because they stand out but my mum in Derry probably couldn't because it's too normal.
 
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