Everton, Arsenal, West Ham...

The final paragraph sums this forum up. Those who debate and are willing to air their views and those who just want to jump on anyone who says anything controversial they don't agree with. Opinions are opinions and everyone is entitled to theirs. Some just can't handle it if those opinions are different to their own.
My view is that there are a few on here whom get shirty if Eddie gets criticised.Now if it's non stop criticism of a player or Eddie then I agree it's wrong.But if you get the plaudits when things are going well then you can expect criticism when things are not.Everyone is entitled to a view,and if you don't agree with me then meet me outside Spurs ground on Saturday for a straightener,:utc::utc::sorry::sorry:
 
And there in lies a great example Del of your ability to say things people haven’t saidand then argue back against it.
I’ve never thought we were going down and never told you it. So one thing I will never be able to say is I told you so. I will be saying ‘well I got that one wrong’

When it comes to signings, I never said they were bad players what made them bad signings was either not using them or signing people we didn’t know how to play.

If you look back you will see how pleased I was to sign Defoe, Murray, the sort of players I love, and Iturbe in particular, I will admit to my shame that I couldn’t wait to see Tomlin in a Bournemouth shirt as thought he was brilliant against us for Boro, King took us apart for Blackburn one game and Distin was, well, Distin. Atsu was in a World Cup sticker book of my lads so I concluded he would do. The only player I can remember not wanting to come back was Marc Wilson but I was fairly open minded. The rest I probably hadn’t heard of (Lerma/Rico/Mousset etc so had no opinion either way.

So I thought all of them were good signings what turned them into bad signings were their lack of use or their lack of fitting the team when they did. We overturned that policy though and the signings greatly improved, a point you know I’ve made many times.

I don’t have an agenda. I have an opinion we are not playing to our potential and some new coaches (but not manager) would help with some new systems. It’s as simple as that.

You've been complaining about our inadequacies using your standard selective examples for a long time and then, as red_house says, quickly jumping back on the fence. You're very quick with the "I told you so's" whenever we get beat in fairness.

You say it was not knowing how to use the players yet Mings was used in his current position and so was Mousett, both had their moments but never looked better than the players ahead of them.

Good old Atsu was injured. Juan Iturbe was crap. We could go through the list and it's like any other transfer list... hits and misses. Yet always you'll be there pulling them up as examples of how badly Howe is doing.

You clearly think Solanke is crap. Yet if he, or dare I say Ibe or anyone else was to move elsewhere and do well they sure as hell will find their way into your weaponry. Afobe would be in their if he had done well. If Mousett reverts to type he'll quietly be removed from your evidence list whilst you find the next stick to beat them with.

No agenda indeed.
 
I like both Moussett and Solanke,different type of players,but both with enough about them to be starting lots of premier league games
 
My view is that there are a few on here whom get shirty if Eddie gets criticised.Now if it's non stop criticism of a player or Eddie then I agree it's wrong.But if you get the plaudits when things are going well then you can expect criticism when things are not.Everyone is entitled to a view,and if you don't agree with me then meet me outside Spurs ground on Saturday for a straightener,:utc::utc::sorry::sorry:
I'll be the one with the hammer and a rather fetching leather apron....:love:
 
You've been complaining about our inadequacies using your standard selective examples for a long time and then, as red_house says, quickly jumping back on the fence. You're very quick with the "I told you so's" whenever we get beat in fairness.

You say it was not knowing how to use the players yet Mings was used in his current position and so was Mousett, both had their moments but never looked better than the players ahead of them.

Good old Atsu was injured. Juan Iturbe was crap. We could go through the list and it's like any other transfer list... hits and misses. Yet always you'll be there pulling them up as examples of how badly Howe is doing.

You clearly think Solanke is crap. Yet if he, or dare I say Ibe or anyone else was to move elsewhere and do well they sure as hell will find their way into your weaponry. Afobe would be in their if he had done well. If Mousett reverts to type he'll quietly be removed from your evidence list whilst you find the next stick to beat them with.

No agenda indeed.
What is my so called agenda then? I’m intrigued.

You are completely missing my point on the players. It’s so simple it’s untrue. Let’s work it through with Ibe. We signed him and we all had high hopes him having started 30 odd times under Brendan Rogers and we had also seen him take Franno apart for both Derby and Birmingham. We then never see that player like that for us and gradually they become a bad signing in our eyes. Now, say hypothetically Brendan as was rumoured in the summer whips Ibe off to Leicester and he starts to play really well for them. Any reasonable mind starts to reAssess the verdict that he was a bad signing back to that he was actually a good signing but not motivated or coached into being able to perform for us.

Three different thoughts from different times but each correct in the evidence that was available at the time.
I know you love binary thought processes but the world doesn’t work like that.
 
I think Mings has had some decent games (eg Man City away last year) but then some shockers (eg wolves) just a few days apart. Prefer cook and ake but surely few could justify Simpson keeping out Mings last season which did happen on occasions? Personally think Mings has been lucky to get away with so many errors this season. Compare his tackle vs West Ham with cook’s vs saints. Cook penalised but Mings not.
 
What is my so called agenda then? I’m intrigued.

You are completely missing my point on the players. It’s so simple it’s untrue. Let’s work it through with Ibe. We signed him and we all had high hopes him having started 30 odd times under Brendan Rogers and we had also seen him take Franno apart for both Derby and Birmingham. We then never see that player like that for us and gradually they become a bad signing in our eyes. Now, say hypothetically Brendan as was rumoured in the summer whips Ibe off to Leicester and he starts to play really well for them. Any reasonable mind starts to reAssess the verdict that he was a bad signing back to that he was actually a good signing but not motivated or coached into being able to perform for us.

Three different thoughts from different times but each correct in the evidence that was available at the time.
I know you love binary thought processes but the world doesn’t work like that.

Fine. Yet you are also clearly missing my very simple point. Which is that you, in your theorising (rather than your match reports) are selective in the evidence you use, and it's always negative.

You don't bang on about how we've improved Fraser, King, Wilson, Ramsdale, Brooks, Cook, Ake, etc. etc. you talk in terms of our failures and pin it on your perceived deficiencies which you admit yourself is blind speculation on your part.

Take Mings, who wasn't even a centre half before he came here and left as one that some other team rated at £26m and had England potential. Clearly there is a non-negative way if looking at our impact on him as a player. You? Nope, it's down to Villa, even though he looked just as good for us in that position as he has for them in my opinion (mainly looks the part but has dodgy moments).

Jordon Ibe is apparently the best player in training and looks like he's got all the attributes. If someone can get a tune out of him they will show up Jurgen Klopp, Eddie Howe, and tbh Brendan Rogers, who also didn't get much out of him from what I saw. Obvs that won't come into your arguments, it will be all down to Howe's deficiencies despite the long list of players he's clearly improved.

Why do you think we are able to sign better players now than PL year 1? Because amongst players Howe has a brilliant reputation as a trainer and improver of players. This isn't people selectively citing examples on the Internet it's actual footballers staking their careers on his skills.

How's that for binary evidence?
 
Fine. Yet you are also clearly missing my very simple point. Which is that you, in your theorising (rather than your match reports) are selective in the evidence you use, and it's always negative.

You don't bang on about how we've improved Fraser, King, Wilson, Ramsdale, Brooks, Cook, Ake, etc. etc. you talk in terms of our failures and pin it on your perceived deficiencies which you admit yourself is blind speculation on your part.

Take Mings, who wasn't even a centre half before he came here and left as one that some other team rated at £26m and had England potential. Clearly there is a non-negative way if looking at our impact on him as a player. You? Nope, it's down to Villa, even though he looked just as good for us in that position as he has for them in my opinion (mainly looks the part but has dodgy moments).

Jordon Ibe is apparently the best player in training and looks like he's got all the attributes. If someone can get a tune out of him they will show up Jurgen Klopp, Eddie Howe, and tbh Brendan Rogers, who also didn't get much out of him from what I saw. Obvs that won't come into your arguments, it will be all down to Howe's deficiencies despite the long list of players he's clearly improved.

Why do you think we are able to sign better players now than PL year 1? Because amongst players Howe has a brilliant reputation as a trainer and improver of players. This isn't people selectively citing examples on the Internet it's actual footballers staking their careers on his skills.

How's that for binary evidence?

For someone that doesn’t allow people to speculate on what might be said on training grounds you are now saying Lerma, Danjuma and Rico came here because they are getting trained in a certain way despite none of them ever saying it.

I love Lerma as much as the next man but he walked out of his old club to force a move here over someone they preferred because of the cash we put on his table. He doesn’t even understand English. But, no, in your mind he was one of the better players that was attracted here to learn from our coaching team. It’s lovely romanticism Del but it’s just not true. Rico had to look up where Bournemouth was...

I think we have great success with young hungry British players from the championship or league one that want a fair punt at playing in the Premier League and are used to being coached a certain way. Players from big clubs or abroad I’m not so sure. Ake is a notable exception to this but is such a natural footballer.

That is why our transfer record improved... younger, hungrier players. Is it enough though? We can look quite dominated now and many have spoke about a lack of on pitch leaders. That’s why Franno and Gosser are back.
 
For someone that doesn’t allow people to speculate on what might be said on training grounds you are now saying Lerma, Danjuma and Rico came here because they are getting trained in a certain way despite none of them ever saying it.

I love Lerma as much as the next man but he walked out of his old club to force a move here over someone they preferred because of the cash we put on his table. He doesn’t even understand English. But, no, in your mind he was one of the better players that was attracted here to learn from our coaching team. It’s lovely romanticism Del but it’s just not true. Rico had to look up where Bournemouth was...

I think we have great success with young hungry British players from the championship or league one that want a fair punt at playing in the Premier League and are used to being coached a certain way. Players from big clubs or abroad I’m not so sure. Ake is a notable exception to this but is such a natural footballer.

That is why our transfer record improved... younger, hungrier players. Is it enough though? We can look quite dominated now and many have spoke about a lack of on pitch leaders. That’s why Franno and Gosser are back.

Like a Jordon Ibe sidestep that.

I was talking about us signing better players that want to improve and be coached ie youngsters. I listed players in my post if you read it Neil. Didn't mention Lerma because he's a different type of signing and had the price tag to match.

As for the other two, who I didn't bring up but seeing as you've said they've never said about us improving players

https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/s...start-premier-league-journey-afc-bournemouth/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...urnemouth-complete-10-7m-deal-Diego-Rico.html

Solanke, Kelly, Stacey, etc. just Google what they said when they signed. It's not speculation Neil.
 
My view is that there are a few on here whom get shirty if Eddie gets criticised.Now if it's non stop criticism of a player or Eddie then I agree it's wrong.But if you get the plaudits when things are going well then you can expect criticism when things are not.Everyone is entitled to a view,and if you don't agree with me then meet me outside Spurs ground on Saturday for a straightener,:utc::utc::sorry::sorry:
I'd certainly be happy to meet anyone on here pre-match but for a beer not fisticuffs :)
 
Like a Jordon Ibe sidestep that.

I was talking about us signing better players that want to improve and be coached ie youngsters. I listed players in my post if you read it Neil. Didn't mention Lerma because he's a different type of signing and had the price tag to match.

As for the other two, who I didn't bring up but seeing as you've said they've never said about us improving players

https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/s...start-premier-league-journey-afc-bournemouth/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...urnemouth-complete-10-7m-deal-Diego-Rico.html

Solanke, Kelly, Stacey, etc. just Google what they said when they signed. It's not speculation Neil.
If you want to believe standard PR spin good luck to you! Probably get excited when people kiss the badge.

David Brooks fair enough but Danjuma And Rico came for the PL dollars...
 
If you want to believe standard PR spin good luck to you! Probably get excited when people kiss the badge.

David Brooks fair enough but Danjuma And Rico came for the PL dollars...

Well that went from accusing me of speculating on what they said and insisting they never said it to "oh but that's just media spin" pretty quickly didn't it?

Not guilty of being selectively negative at all though Neil of course. :grinning:
 
I think Neil is making two different arguments (or criticisms) here which are getting mixed and rolled into one: 1) whether our coaching is up to scratch, judging by whether we've improved individual players, and 2) whether we need something more tactically.

On 1), I think the answer in the long-term is an overwhelming yes and in the short term is inconclusive. We saw players improve from League 1 to PL standard in a few short years just through quality coaching and hard work. Replicating that same level of improvement in the PL would be incredibly impressive, but from my point of view, as I mentioned before, we've had a mix of improvements, players going backwards and players staying about the same. To be honest that is what I would expect from a mid-table PL team.

On 2), I think there is space for criticism and I think Neil does a good job in identifying where we go wrong tactically and I agree with him in terms of the formations I'd like us to play, players in different positions etc. I think this is Howe's main challenge at the moment, but then so is it for most mid-table PL managers. I also think Howe's track record suggests he'll get there eventually, but that doesn't mean we all have to agree with him until he does.

Where I disagree with Neil is the assertion that we haven't added experience and variety to our backroom staff and that adding a top PL coach to our ranks would solve all the problems. I also think it's naive to think that finding one that wants to drop everything and join AFCB is as easy as he makes it sound. We can't sign top PL ready players - why should it be the same with coaches?
 
Imo one of Eddie’s biggest weaknesses is his refusal to drop his favourites even when it would benefit the team to do so, most ppl can see that CW and JK can’t play upfront together for example but he will shoehorn JK into that number 10 role just to get him in the team. We wonder why we go through patches when standards drop so noticeably, maybe it’s because certain players know that they will not be dropped regardless of how they perform? Is it a coincidence that our most exciting spell (and best football) this season came with players like Stacey and Solanke in the team? Young hungry players with something to prove! But the moment Smith and Fraser regain fitness both are back in the team and the status quo resumes. Not to criticise either of them individually as players, but what message does it send to the rest of the squad? Imo Eddie’s reluctance to drop players when out of form, along with his reluctance to change things tactically, is a huge reason why we so often look so stale during periods of the season.
 
I think Neil is making two different arguments (or criticisms) here which are getting mixed and rolled into one: 1) whether our coaching is up to scratch, judging by whether we've improved individual players, and 2) whether we need something more tactically.

On 1), I think the answer in the long-term is an overwhelming yes and in the short term is inconclusive. We saw players improve from League 1 to PL standard in a few short years just through quality coaching and hard work. Replicating that same level of improvement in the PL would be incredibly impressive, but from my point of view, as I mentioned before, we've had a mix of improvements, players going backwards and players staying about the same. To be honest that is what I would expect from a mid-table PL team.

On 2), I think there is space for criticism and I think Neil does a good job in identifying where we go wrong tactically and I agree with him in terms of the formations I'd like us to play, players in different positions etc. I think this is Howe's main challenge at the moment, but then so is it for most mid-table PL managers. I also think Howe's track record suggests he'll get there eventually, but that doesn't mean we all have to agree with him until he does.

Where I disagree with Neil is the assertion that we haven't added experience and variety to our backroom staff and that adding a top PL coach to our ranks would solve all the problems. I also think it's naive to think that finding one that wants to drop everything and join AFCB is as easy as he makes it sound. We can't sign top PL ready players - why should it be the same with coaches?

Good points and I’d add the two are inextricably linked. Play people in positions that don’t suit and they look like they haven’t developed. Mousset is a good example of this playing behind Wilson occasionally and behind Defoe in cup etc. Put that explosive pace on the last man like Sheff U have and he has gone off like a rocket. Similarly we might have a different opinion of Harry if he played in the ten. Also look at Danjumas impact in a front three compared to how he has looked wide midfield.

So why you are correct they are two points they are also linked.
 
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Well that went from accusing me of speculating on what they said and insisting they never said it to "oh but that's just media spin" pretty quickly didn't it?

Not guilty of being selectively negative at all though Neil of course. :grinning:
Its sweet of you though Del. PR companies need people like you.

Little Juan Iturbe kicking his ball around in Buenos Aires dreaming when he grows up he could be Sammy Igoe... great story ;)
 
I am not quite sure why the 'fizz' seems to have gone from our play?

The one main reason is the lack of form from Fraser and Callum Wilson who we rely on for our goals...King is inconsistent but is our best striker when on form IMO

Defensively the addition of Lerma and Billing has helped, although the tinkering of the back four is frustrating...I would like to see a regular four of Smith/Ake/Cook and Rico...trying to slot in Francis or Daniels when he returns will be a backward step IMO. We have good reserves defensively in Mepham, Stacey and Kelly.

I do miss the energy that Matt Ritchie and Marc Pugh gave us in their heyday...and Eddie hasn't really had much 'luck' in replacing them in the shape of Ibe or Stanislas (being so injury prone)..although Brooks is a huge miss for us and Harry Wilson just looks too lightweigh..Danjuma looks promising but raw presently...

Solanke will need time but I think that he will succeed where Ibe seems to have failed...

The squad pool of Surman and Gosling are average but essential components...

Eddie Howe and Jason Tindall will turn it around as they have before and I don't see us being in a true relegation scrap tbh.
 
Imo one of Eddie’s biggest weaknesses is his refusal to drop his favourites even when it would benefit the team to do so, most ppl can see that CW and JK can’t play upfront together for example but he will shoehorn JK into that number 10 role just to get him in the team. We wonder why we go through patches when standards drop so noticeably, maybe it’s because certain players know that they will not be dropped regardless of how they perform? Is it a coincidence that our most exciting spell (and best football) this season came with players like Stacey and Solanke in the team? Young hungry players with something to prove! But the moment Smith and Fraser regain fitness both are back in the team and the status quo resumes. Not to criticise either of them individually as players, but what message does it send to the rest of the squad? Imo Eddie’s reluctance to drop players when out of form, along with his reluctance to change things tactically, is a huge reason why we so often look so stale during periods of the season.

I think the Smith & Stacey thing is a bit different. Jack must know he's only going to get in the team when Smith is injured - real shame, but Smith is one of the first names on the team sheet.
 
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Its sweet of you though Del. PR companies need people like you.

Little Juan Iturbe kicking his ball around in Buenos Aires dreaming when he grows up he could be Sammy Igoe... great story ;)

Very good Neil but as I've said, I wasn't referring to the those players when making my point, I mentioned the players I was referring to. You brought the foreign lads up when you said this:

"For someone that doesn’t allow people to speculate on what might be said on training grounds you are now saying Lerma, Danjuma and Rico came here because they are getting trained in a certain way despite none of them ever saying it."

So you were wrong when you tried to insinuate that I meant the foreign players when I said that footballers stake their career's on Eddie's ability to improve them (just Google any interview with a British youngster we've signed, you know, one I specifically mentioned in my post).

Even though you were trying to change what I said to better argue against my point, accusing me of speculation into the bargain, you still failed because you jumped in with two feet and were even wrong about what they'd said.

So you created a straw man to fight... and lost. :rofl:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man?wprov=sfla1
 

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