Non - Brexit

cockbeard said:
That does happen a lot in EU land

However the stuff about no second vote was utter gubbins, if anyone had any faith that the first vote meant anything it would have carried a legal mandate rather than simply being an advisory poll
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An advisory poll that was agreed by both the main parties would be acted upon ...if the vote had been for remain and then the politicians had decided to leave anyway , would you have agreed with that ?
 
cockbeard said:
That does happen a lot in EU land

However the stuff about no second vote was utter gubbins, if anyone had any faith that the first vote meant anything it would have carried a legal mandate rather than simply being an advisory poll
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I don't agree at all. Politically the vote has to carry weight if not legally. It's just legal semantics to say otherwise. If parliament votes to go to the people on an issue and they explicitly say the vote will be honoured you can't use legal loopholes to circumvent the vote. Democracy relies on legitimacy in the eyes of the people.
 
wallmth said:
Think this as close as we’ll ever be to seeing BTK angry ...sums up the mood of a lot of the general public .
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But he's bang on the money. These weak people we give office to, because democracy is now some rubbish popularity contest. "Britain's Got Liars" if you will. It's a shoddy state of affairs, personally I'd sack the lot of them, immediately, no bloody pensions either. 6 or 7 years of autocracy under me and the public will be happy to take whatever I offer them as long as it's not more years of me. Which I think is what many leavers voted for two years ago, anything other than the rubbish they get fed every day
 
SlowDownDerek said:
As I say, just about the only thing that all sides agreed upon before the vote was that there wouldn't be another vote and that the result would be honoured. The only people who are advocating another vote are people that want to reverse the result. I think it would definitely be an affront to democracy.
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But if it goes tits up, I guarantee that 52% of the 52% will say it’s all gone wrong because it’s not the Brexit we voted for.
 
wallmth said:
Think this as close as we’ll ever be to seeing BTK angry ...sums up the mood of a lot of the general public .
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As much as I'm against the idea of a second referendum where I disagree with a lot of leavers is the idea that the result gives a clear mandate for leaving the CU and SM - I just don't think it's as clear cut as that.

Not necessarily aimed at you - just on the theme of the mood of the general public.
 
stanthevan said:
But if it goes tits up, I guarantee that 52% of the 52% will say it’s all gone wrong because it’s not the Brexit we voted for.
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We need to worry about how to proceed not what people will say afterwards. It needs someone to grow some balls and plough straight through the middle ground for the sake of the country. EFTA and no second referendum unless it is promised on the manifesto of the next government.
 
wallmth said:
An advisory poll that was agreed by both the main parties would be acted upon ...if the vote had been for remain and then the politicians had decided to leave anyway , would you have agreed with that ?
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Well that's exactly the point. I think if I had asked 60 million people for an opinion, then asked 600 people who had been paid (and also pay their own staff) to study the subject matter and form an opinion based on the facts in front of them, then yeah, I'd listen to the supposed subject matter experts. Do you call a sparky when you want a door hanging?

No matter which way the vote was, it's a huge constitutional change and the closeness of the vote absolutely requires strong leadership to either refuse or manage the change. Cameron deserves exile and ridicule for abdicating his duty, basically throwing his toys out of the pram. In today's world of the professional politician, there are few strong leaders, there aren't people in parliament who've ever done anything. No business owners, entrepreneurs, shop stewards, care workers, teachers, leaders of community
 
" plough straight through the middle ground for the sake of the country"

Many of leavers don't want the middle ground. Thats the whole point. The leavers dont even agree how much the want us to hurt.
 
Druss_the_Legend said:
" plough straight through the middle ground for the sake of the country"

Many of leavers don't want the middle ground. Thats the whole point. The leavers dont even agree how much the want us to hurt.
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My point is that we shouldn't be held hostage by the extremes on both sides because they are not a majority. Be that second referendum advocates or hard brexiteers that want a no deal solution. We can always continue to campaign for further integration or further cuts in ties via general elections. Our major parties need urgent reform and/or to split for that to be effective though.
 
SlowDownDerek said:
My point is that we shouldn't be held hostage by the extremes on both sides because they are not a majority. Be that second referendum advocates or hard brexiteers that want a no deal solution. We can always continue to campaign for further integration or further cuts in ties via general elections. Our major parties need urgent reform and/or to split for that to be effective though.
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So a vote on the method of leaving? Now there is an idea.
 
SlowDownDerek said:
My point is that we shouldn't be held hostage by the extremes on both sides because they are not a majority. Be that second referendum advocates or hard brexiteers that want a no deal solution. We can always continue to campaign for further integration or further cuts in ties via general elections. Our major parties need urgent reform and/or to split for that to be effective
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Druss_the_Legend said:
So a vote on the method of leaving? Now there is an idea.
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And once again there will be the lies and counter lies , remainers are cowards ,leavers are thick ...is this new referendum going to be just advisory Druss ? will there be a remain option ?
 
cockbeard said:
Well that's exactly the point. I think if I had asked 60 million people for an opinion, then asked 600 people who had been paid (and also pay their own staff) to study the subject matter and form an opinion based on the facts in front of them, then yeah, I'd listen to the supposed subject matter experts. Do you call a sparky when you want a door hanging?
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No, but you wouldn't let the door hanger put a UPVC door in if you said you wanted a wooden one on the basis that he was an expert in doors.
 
Exactly, I'm take that chippy to the cleaners, for being rubbish at his job and misrepresenting himself as a professional who was able to make a decision. Hence me firing the lot of them
 
cockbeard said:
But he's bang on the money. These weak people we give office to, because democracy is now some rubbish popularity contest. "Britain's Got Liars" if you will. It's a shoddy state of affairs, personally I'd sack the lot of them, immediately, no bloody pensions either. 6 or 7 years of autocracy under me and the public will be happy to take whatever I offer them as long as it's not more years of me. Which I think is what many leavers voted for two years ago, anything other than the rubbish they get fed every day
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Nothing there I disagree with ...I’m genuinely at the point of wondering if the Western Democracy system is broken beyond repair .. the one thing we have learnt over the past couple of years is our politicians are not fit for purpose .
 
JIMNNINA said:
by 2023, long after brexit day.
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So what? Does a manifesto instantly get implemented the moment a government is formed?

It's amazing how people who didn't vote for the message on the bus are able to describe in precise detail, to the day, exactly what those that did vote for the bus message understood would happen. People aren't idiots, they understood the message the bus was putting across and they made their minds up.
 
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