Another day, another dodgy decision for the top six

Kudos said:
I think you're confused about how it works. You attack the straw man rather than defend one but appreciate you laying out your stall.

There is good evidence showing a correlation between "big clubs" and favourable decisions which is particularly raw because as a club we've been the victim of a string of them. On top of that players like Wilshire calling it out in the press.

Wilson's handball is about the only thing I can remember going our way in the last couple or seasons or so. Even then it was such a tight call it's tough to tell even with replays. Unlike say Simpson handing Pugh's shot.

The topic of discussion is how do you rationalize the strong evidence of bias in officiating in favour of "big teams".

There is one thing missing from your list.
Do you believe there is any bias?
Do you believe it's unfair bias?
Do you believe it is concious?

I think there's bias, I also think it's unfair (i.e. not just a product of being more attacking/skillful).

How concious it is where I struggle, would a referee think that if Salah goes down it must be because he's fouled rather than if Fraser does? Does a referee fear the inquisition driven by pundits with big club loyalties?
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Do I think there is bias? Well, I've seen games where I felt that there was evidence of bias. But not anywhere near the scale that some claim on here. Oh, and I (and you, and the others) have our own biases. Does that make us perceive bias against our club?

Unfair? Bias is unfair I guess.

Conscious? No I certainly don't think it is conscious. I really don't think a ref would deliberately aid a 'big club' although maybe one day it will be proved otherwise.

I think Watford and Wolves would question decisions going our way in recent times to name but two. Was our Championship season where we got loads of penalties and favourable decisions the result of some bias towards getting a 'little club' in the Prem.

My final point is the if this 'bias' exists, it won't necessarily go away because of some other ref with bias in a caravan. I'm not sure VAR will be the panacea you hope for.
 
Whilst I think about it, is there a system of 'priority bias' when the big six play each other? And are Everton also unfairly treated or not?

How did Leicester win the title?
 
JIMNNINA said:
Are referees purposely showing bias to the top six ?

On the evidence of decisions this season in matches v afcb a definite yes.


A clear simple idea or two for improving the performance of these fallible humans seems beyond the pgmol apologists.
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That’s why I used the word purposely . So your saying refs are cheating , no other word can describe what your claiming . Referees are cheating to help the top six ...ya paranoid fruitcake .
 
When the big six play each other, no free kicks, off sides or penalties are given. In fact no decision which could likely piss off either manager is given at all. No need for VAR. Game lasts exactly 90 minutes.
 
RobTrent said:
Do I think there is bias? Well, I've seen games where I felt that there was evidence of bias. But not anywhere near the scale that some claim on here. Oh, and I (and you, and the others) have our own biases. Does that make us perceive bias against our club?
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Yeah, I'd be mad to think that I don't hold biases. Thing is if you've had a string of bad decisions go against you and one for, it does make it hard for me to just chalk it off as personal bias.

I also see it when I watch it on TV even when I want a big team to beat a rival.

Unfair? Bias is unfair I guess.
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So for example if there was a team that received a lot of penalties but said team also had a massive number of dribbles in the box you could rationalize it.

Man Utd are the perfect example. They have cracking players but they are woeful yet still get tonnes of favourable decisions.

Conscious? No I certainly don't think it is conscious. I really don't think a ref would deliberately aid a 'big club' although maybe one day it will be proved otherwise.
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I think this is the real debate because it's a real grey area if you're afraid of the media backlash is that a concious bias to make sure you don't make a mistake in disallowing the "big" club a decision?
If fifty thousand people shout "handball" are you more likely to give it?
On the topic of VAR. Would somebody without [insert >150k/week player] screaming in their face, away from the crowd and with the benefit of better angles, replays and no physical fatigue make better decisions?

I think Watford and Wolves would question decisions going our way in recent times to name but two. Was our Championship season where we got loads of penalties and favourable decisions the result of some bias towards getting a 'little club' in the Prem.
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Wolverhampton "red card rescinded on a technicality" Wanderers or Watford "Forestieri dive of the decade"?

I'm sure we had something like twice as many touches in the opposition box as the next highest team as well as a crazy number of "key passes". Sure the other clubs complained but they wouldn't be able to point to examples of why it was unfair only that it didn't go their way.

My final point is the if this 'bias' exists, it won't necessarily go away because of some other ref with bias in a caravan. I'm not sure VAR will be the panacea you hope for.
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Can't make it worse and when you got the TV reporting wrong decision while the referee is watching the replays it's got to increase standards. We won't get the ones where Zaha runs into an outstretched leg or when Fraser finally crumbles under a grapple but we'll get a few more of the less subjective calls correct.
 
Kudos said:
Yeah, I'd be mad to think that I don't hold biases. Thing is if you've had a string of bad decisions go against you and one for, it does make it hard for me to just chalk it off as personal bias.

I also see it when I watch it on TV even when I want a big team to beat a rival.



So for example if there was a team that received a lot of penalties but said team also had a massive number of dribbles in the box you could rationalize it.

Man Utd are the perfect example. They have cracking players but they are woeful yet still get tonnes of favourable decisions.



I think this is the real debate because it's a real grey area if you're afraid of the media backlash is that a concious bias to make sure you don't make a mistake in disallowing the "big" club a decision?
If fifty thousand people shout "handball" are you more likely to give it?
On the topic of VAR. Would somebody without [insert >150k/week player] screaming in their face, away from the crowd and with the benefit of better angles, replays and no physical fatigue make better decisions?



Wolverhampton "red card rescinded on a technicality" Wanderers or Watford "Forestieri dive of the decade"?

I'm sure we had something like twice as many touches in the opposition box as the next highest team as well as a crazy number of "key passes". Sure the other clubs complained but they wouldn't be able to point to examples of why it was unfair only that it didn't go their way.



Can't make it worse and when you got the TV reporting wrong decision while the referee is watching the replays it's got to increase standards. We won't get the ones where Zaha runs into an outstretched leg or when Fraser finally crumbles under a grapple but we'll get a few more of the less subjective calls correct.
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ok, not to labour the whole thing:

Can you prove that about United?

I do feel you kind of dodged the issue when bringing up the Watford/Wolves incidents. Their fans (and Brighton) feel 'plucky' AFCB were favoured not just against their clubs. But they're biased too.

I think you miss the point of my objection to VAR. I just don't think it will add to the match going spectacle. If it does, then great. (Maybe).
 
RobTrent said:
Whilst I think about it, is there a system of 'priority bias' when the big six play each other? And are Everton also unfairly treated or not?

How did Leicester win the title?
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I'm sure you're being factious but I think the perfect example of the media frenzy created by making a decision against a "big"club is when they play each other.

A bad decision in one of these games and you're really hung out to dry.

I don't watch Everton enough to understand where they sit but I wouldn't be surprised if they and possibly Spurs get less than United and Liverpool.

Leciester was a perfect storm, all the big clubs in disarray, lucky with injuries (and decisions) as well as a crazy good run of form.
 
RobTrent said:
ok, not to labour the whole thing:

Can you prove that about United?

I do feel you kind of dodged the issue when bringing up the Watford/Wolves incidents. Their fans (and Brighton) feel 'plucky' AFCB were favoured not just against their clubs. But they're biased too.

I think you miss the point of my objection to VAR. I just don't think it will add to the match going spectacle. If it does, then great. (Maybe).
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I'm OK with dragging it out. Feels a lot more constructive that the last few pages of name calling.

With United, I've watched them a number of times this season but appreciate that's subjective. The best you could do is maybe show a number of decisions and you could make your own mind up. There was a table done last season where decisions were reviewed for all clubs and it had United down 13 points just on big calls that influenced goal decisions.

Even trying to leave biases at the door I can't fathom where the preferential treatment was for our second Championship season. The only way I could thoroughly address your point would be to address every call made and see if it was incorrect in our favour as often as it was not in our favour. Although that bloody Brentford game would give us a good shot at coming up positive.

The only argument that I've heard about us was the number of penalties, it was something like 11 with the next highest at 8 or 9 and I was trying to use stats about how often we're in the area (and creating chances) to support the idea that it's not unreasonable if you're in the oppositions area twice as much (and creating chances) you should awarded twice as many penalties.

I didn't pay much attention to them, did they have other concerns?

I understand people's objections to VAR even if I don't share them but I thought we were talking specifically about it's ability to iron out bias.
 
The reply will include the decisions in favour of afcb in matches against man city, liverpool, chelsea, arsenal and man utd this season?
 
We used to get decisions all the time in the Championship which weren't right, but an awful lot that were missed as well. We all put it down to being in the opponents box more than other teams so there are more decisions to make, but percentages are probably roughly the same. Everybody else called us cheats.

I suspect it's the same here.
 
I know I’ve said it before but it was so long ago....

Make a call that costs Liverpool a title and you will be on national tv world wide on repeat. You will be talked about and pilloried for years, your chances of cup finals, champions league and world cups greatly diminished. Career effected massively.

Make a call that relegates Huddersfield and you will be talked about in the Huddersfield Examiner for a day or two.

There is no refereeing conspiracy. There is refereeing fear and everytime Klopp or Mourinho or Wenger discuss poor refereeing as the reason for failure of their teams the fear notches up.

If you lost a point for everytime you blamed an official for a result you could stop it overnight.
 
Another point. This isn’t new. People have been talking about the deterioration of refereeing standards since I was a kid in the eighties. Leeds lost a title didn’t they in the 70s with an appalling decision?

So...refereeing isn’t getting worse imo. The pace of the game is huge, players are adept con merchants you have to see everything it’s impossible. I have linesmanned at my sons games many times, as I’m sure a few of you have too...it’s not easy even at their speed when the ball comes off a crossbar to remember who was where when the original shot happened etc.

So...we face two choices. Technology to help the impossible job. Or...live with inaccuracies to keep the game flowing.

You can make a good case for either...just don’t expect refereeing has a magic coaching switch it can flick to put everything right.
 
Neil Dawson said:
Another point. This isn’t new. People have been talking about the deterioration of refereeing standards since I was a kid in the eighties. Leeds lost a title didn’t they in the 70s with an appalling decision?

So...refereeing isn’t getting worse imo. The pace of the game is huge, players are adept con merchants you have to see everything it’s impossible. I have linesmanned at my sons games many times, as I’m sure a few of you have too...it’s not easy even at their speed when the ball comes off a crossbar to remember who was where when the original shot happened etc.

So...we face two choices. Technology to help the impossible job. Or...live with inaccuracies to keep the game flowing.

You can make a good case for either...just don’t expect refereeing has a magic coaching switch it can flick to put everything right.
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It's also inbuilt in us since we were kids to cheat from somewhere. You put your hand up to claim a corner / throw-in when you're 7-8 years old even though you know you were the last to touch it.
 
The ordinary mortal coaching switch was flicked over a decade ago.....

What is PGMOL responsible for?
- Formed in 2001 to improve refereeing standards, the PGMOL group officiate across all the Premier League, English Football League (EFL) and Football Association (FA) Competitions – all three organisations fund it.
- The training, development and mentoring of 110 referees and 175 assistant referees – run by Managing Director Mike Riley (a former PGMOL referee) and a team of managers and coaches.

https://www.premierleague.com/referees/pgmol
 
JIMNNINA said:
The ordinary mortal coaching switch was flicked over a decade ago.....

What is PGMOL responsible for?
- Formed in 2001 to improve refereeing standards, the PGMOL group officiate across all the Premier League, English Football League (EFL) and Football Association (FA) Competitions – all three organisations fund it.
- The training, development and mentoring of 110 referees and 175 assistant referees – run by Managing Director Mike Riley (a former PGMOL referee) and a team of managers and coaches.

https://www.premierleague.com/referees/pgmol
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I think standards have improved, its just that there's so much scrutiny these days on every decision.

I wonder whether Salahs goal would have been called offside even with VAR. I'm not convinced, but next season we'll see how useful it is.
 
Rob, Salah was stood half a yard offside, so if VAR didn't chalk it off, the system must have been broken! That incident was a clear example of why VAR is needed, the latest in a list of black and white decisions against us recently.
Things like penalties etc can always be debated [ eg: Brooks at Newcastle probably wouldn't have been corrected by VAR as people differed opinions when seeing it on replay ]. But offside / onside decisions, you can't argue with, they are either right or wrong.

As for the Championship season and the penalties we had.....even with Cherry tinted specs on...I couldn't say more than one or two were even debatable. Arter vs Boro was the clear lucky decision. As Kudos said [ and it's carried on since we have been up here ], if you have fast attacking players who get in the box at pace, you are likely to gain more penalties than other teams. It was as simple as that. We were called cheats but those accusers couldn't give evidence of wrong decisions.
 
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