Non - Brexit

[dutchcherry]

I believe in democracy. The EU is not democratic. It is run by a lot of arrogant unelected commissioners. I do not understand how anyone can think this is correct.

You’re going to love the World Trade Organization. On that note, shall we also leave Nato, the IMF, the UN, Interpol? If you hate unelected people so much why don’t you come up with a plan for us to elect every single member of the civil service. I think it’s only 400 odd thousand people. Simples. Bit of advice, put it on the side of a bus.

 

[JIMNNINA]

Sovereignty starts on your doorstep, all part of the democratic process in the UK.
Local decisions have a bigger impact on the daily lives of most people than the bad or good decisions made in big bad Brussels.

 

[dutchcherry]

In over two years I have not heard of one single thing that anyone can show will be improved by leaving the European Union - if any Brexiteer on here can explain clearly one thing then I should be very interested to hear?

Apparently the colour of your passport is very important. We can now have a blue British one (made in France).

 

[SlowDownDerek]

You’re going to love the World Trade Organization. On that note, shall we also leave Nato, the IMF, the UN, Interpol? If you hate unelected people so much why don’t you come up with a plan for us to elect every single member of the civil service. I think it’s only 400 odd thousand people. Simples. Bit of advice, put it on the side of a bus.

We can leave them all if the public decide that's what they want - that's pretty much the point.

 

[SlowDownDerek]

Sovereignty starts on your doorstep, all part of the democratic process in the UK.
Local decisions have a bigger impact on the daily lives of most people than the bad or good decisions made in big bad Brussels.

If you say so - I'd suggest that voter turnout at elections tells you which politicians the public see as the most powerful and influential.

 

[dutchcherry]

We can leave them all if the public decide that's what they want - that's pretty much the point.

Scary thing is we probably will in a few years time. The shady ‘think tanks’ know what buttons to press now and how to get 600 thousand people to do what they want. My money is on us leaving NATO first. Vlad would certainly like that.

 

[Silent AFCB]

Apparently the colour of your passport is very important. We can now have a blue British one (made in France).

We could have had blue ones anyway, the vote didn't change that.

 

[northstandmark]

You’re going to love the World Trade Organization. On that note, shall we also leave Nato, the IMF, the UN, Interpol? If you hate unelected people so much why don’t you come up with a plan for us to elect every single member of the civil service. I think it’s only 400 odd thousand people. Simples. Bit of advice, put it on the side of a bus.

If the World Trade Organization, Nato, the IMF, the UN, and Interpol ever start submitting legal changes of our country's laws and constitution, perhaps named after cities such as Maastricht and Lisbon, that our politicians then sign without consent...Then yes.

Fortunately the purpose of those organisations is related to pan-nation state relations and collaboration, and usually fairly democratic nation states at that. Rather than eroding democracy and eventually doing away with the nation state.

Nato is an interesting one currently, we're one of the only members who actually pays our dues! The rest of central Europe seems intent on side-stepping it and creating something more European and EU centric, due to irritation at the USA/Trump?

 

[TCherry]

I voted to remain, the wife to leave. TBH nobody had any idea what we were going to get if we left. I blame the right wing conservatives for pushing for a referendum and Cameron for allowing it to happen and then jumping ship afterwards.
The genie is out of the box now so it's too late.
Until very recently I hoped that we'd go for another referendum but my feeling is that the country is very polarised and it would be very close either way. Look at this footie forum, lot's of diverse views and we all have an affinity towards AFCB but so not so much tolerance for each other.
Also with a second referendum, if it isn't the 'right' result then is it the best of three?
My feeling is that we'll go for a hard Brexit - whatever that means and then spend the next 10 years rebuilding our trading positions - if we can.
At least then the 'will of the people' has been satisfied and we can get on with things.
Heaven help us if Corbyn gets in on the back of this, I wouldn't trust him to run the country for the good of our future generations.

 

[SlowDownDerek]

Scary thing is we probably will in a few years time. The shady ‘think tanks’ know what buttons to press now and how to get 600 thousand people to do what they want. My money is on us leaving NATO first. Vlad would certainly like that.

Are you suggesting we abandon democracy because of Putin's influence? He definitely wouldn't see that as a win would he

The democratic crime here was committed by John Major in 1992 (+ Brown in 2007) - if he'd have sought legitimacy from voters before or even shortly after Maastricht we wouldn't be in this mess. You can't just sign away people's democratic power without asking them.

 

[SlowDownDerek]

I have heard a number of people who voted Remain say that we should honour the vote of the people?

Have you changed your mind since the 2016 vote?

Still hearing politicians etc saying we can stop Brexit, don’t they believe in a Democratic vote?

We should honour the vote but that does not mean handing over all power to hard brexiteers just because they happen to be the loudest voices on the side that won. There will be some half-way house outcome - which is about right given how close the vote was.

No I've not changed my mind about how I would vote although I don't think there should be a second referendum - it would lack legitimacy from day 1.

 

[billythekid]

We should honour the vote but that does not mean handing over all power to hard brexiteers just because they happen to be the loudest voices on the side that one. There will be some half-way house outcome - which is about right given how close the vote was.

No I've not changed my mind about how I would vote although I don't think there should be a second referendum - it would lack legitimacy from day 1.

Thanks.

 

[JIMNNINA]

We should honour the vote

and implement a border in the Irish Sea to allow free movement of goods and people in Ireland
or
and implement a hard customs border between a part of the UK and part of the EU

Time to come out from behind the sofa and explain what was voted for.

 

[SlowDownDerek]

We should honour the vote

and implement a border in the Irish Sea to allow free movement of goods and people in Ireland
or
and implement a hard customs border between a part of the UK and part of the EU

Time to come out from behind the sofa and explain what was voted for.

I've said loads of times what I would do. EEA membership short-term with the longer-term aim of moulding that organisation into something both parties can live with. Those that prefer a harder brexit can continue to campaign for it but I don't think they represent the majority. Those that want full EU membership can also continue to campaign for that but they will get nowhere near convincing people to vote back in once we've left.

 

[northstandmark]

We should honour the vote

and implement a border in the Irish Sea to allow free movement of goods and people in Ireland
or
and implement a hard customs border between a part of the UK and part of the EU

Time to come out from behind the sofa and explain what was voted for.

Switzerland's border is crossed by around 2.4million people every day to or from the EU. Every day, 23,000 lorries carry a million euros’ worth of goods across the Swiss-EU border. That's a lot more than goes on over the Irish border.

The Swiss are generally a very clever people, and they are also on good working terms with the EU despite not being part of it or it's customs union.

Now we wouldn't be able to just pickup the Swiss model and plonk it down in Ireland, as some Hard Brexiteers would have us believe. But perhaps we should go have a chat with the Swiss (or started a chat with them the day after the referendum). Because they show that it can be done, if the politicians and civil servants are willing and good enough.

Edit - as SDD says above I'm also very much an advocate of the internationally well understood and established model of EEA membership, as a way out of the current muddle. Seeing as we're now 2 years down the line without (seemingly) a really clear way forward (unless there's something hidden up May's sleeve which I doubt).

 

[JIMNNINA]

Is there a mandate for the suggested option ?

EEA comes with freedom of movement for nationals of EU and EEA countries as well as the goods and services .
What is the timescale for being allowed to leave the EEA ?

 

[billythekid]

Don’t think this bloke’s attitude helped the EU when we went to vote, as has been mentioned before.


This article seems to think the same.

One man, in fact, has made me more certain than anything else that we have made a difficult, painful, but correct decision. That man is Jean-Claude Juncker.

If ever there was a symbol of the arrogance of the European Union, and its utter contempt for its citizens, it is this man.

His demands that Britain must face “consequences” struck a chord. Where Angela Merkel spoke diplomatically about not turning Brexit into “a nasty divorce”, this undemocratic bureaucrat is clear he would rather punish the British for exercising their vote, even if such punishment damages the greater European economy. He is spiteful, he is petty, and he seemingly wants to cut his nose off to spite his face. He has shown his true colours.

His refusal to offer concessions to Britain, where even one might have made the difference between Leave and Remain, shows breathtaking arrogance. He has demanded Britain begin the process of invoking Article 50 immediately, when the country is in no fit state to do so. His view is clear: everyone must stick to the same outdated rules, even where they may irreparably damage you. Should you leave, we will damage you further. The man’s a sadomasochist in a boring suit. The very embodiment of Fifty Shades of Grey.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...merkel-bitter-arrogant-response-a7107336.html

 

[SlowDownDerek]

Is there a mandate for the suggested option ?

EEA comes with freedom of movement for nationals of EU and EEA countries as well as the goods and services .
What is the timescale for being allowed to leave the EEA ?

It's time to start walking the walk Jim not just shooting solutions down with no answers. To answer you - this is what I would do and is my interpretation of what there is a mandate for. Please put forward your preferred option if you disagree. In my opinion ignoring that we voted out is as unviable as day 1 no-deal hard brexit.

Yes we could restrict free movement - the EU knows that EEA is a decent result for them and that free movement is a deal-breaker for the UK so I think a deal on this would be petty straightforward.

 

[northstandmark]

Pretty damning coming from the Indie that, BTK. Austria were calling for him to step aside in July this year, what with his...health concerns...Whether you believe that's all down to sciatica, I doubt the lunchtime boozing helps..

 

[dutchcherry]

Switzerland's border is crossed by around 2.4million people every day to or from the EU. Every day, 23,000 lorries carry a million euros’ worth of goods across the Swiss-EU border. That's a lot more than goes on over the Irish border.

The Swiss are generally a very clever people, and they are also on good working terms with the EU despite not being part of it or it's customs union.

Now we wouldn't be able to just pickup the Swiss model and plonk it down in Ireland, as some Hard Brexiteers would have us believe. But perhaps we should go have a chat with the Swiss (or started a chat with them the day after the referendum). Because they show that it can be done, if the politicians and civil servants are willing and good enough.

Edit - as SDD says above I'm also very much an advocate of the internationally well understood and established model of EEA membership, as a way out of the current muddle. Seeing as we're now 2 years down the line without (seemingly) a really clear way forward (unless there's something hidden up May's sleeve which I doubt).

Switzerland is in schengen, that’s why they have the deal they have. Also, if we applied that at the Irish border as the solution would the same rules be applied at Calais? That port would be crippled in half a day.

Also, the good Friday agreement says there will never be two different sets of rules between mainland and Northern Ireland. Shall we throw away 20 years of peace for a Brexit championed by people for 30 odd years but when pushed can’t even put it down on paper?