Non - Brexit

wallmth said:
Problem is soaking the rich has proven to be unsustainable time and time again also .
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True but if I were rich I would be taking the inability of younger people to be able to generate wealth more seriously than many do. There's a lot of people in the older generations that think they are wealthier than younger generations because they've worked harder or made better decisions. It's b*llocks - they have just been luckier with house price generated wealth.

Youngsters now don't have the same ability that older generations had to generate wealth and that is a major problem to the traditional notion that you'll get rewarded if you work hard. The inequity in the system is there for all to see.
 
SlowDownDerek said:
Sure but some of us would rather they go after the tax avoiders rather than have the tax authorities shrug their shoulders about big business avoiding billions whilst throwing huge resources going after a few grand off white van man.
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Well I’m certainly not disagreeing with that . Surely though change the laws ,if it’s legal why on earth would you pay a tax you didn’t have to ...Some people just feel they can use their money better than giving it to a giant bloated centralized government .
 
SlowDownDerek said:
True but if I were rich I would be taking the inability of younger people to be able to generate wealth more seriously than many do. There's a lot of people in the older generations that think they are wealthier than younger generations because they've worked harder or made better decisions. It's b*llocks - they have just been luckier with house price generated wealth.

Youngsters now don't have the same ability that older generations had to generate wealth and that is a major problem to the traditional notion that you'll get rewarded if you work hard. The inequity in the system is there for all to see.
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I Have four kids between 19 and 30 ,I know they have not got it easy by any stretch .They have it so much harder than previous generations ,but throwing more money at government ? I don’t get how that’s going to help ....again that’s the kind of crux of it ..should I lob thousands extra in tax or help one of mine with a down payment .
 
I really cant see morally how they can differ that much....although its easy to see that the punishments dished out to the different ends of the wealth band-width are disproportionate.
There are two small time business brothers from this town currently serving 2 year jail terms over tax issues. These guys were payjng a decent wage to about 10 employees in a rural Fencing Installation company, and had a good reputation around Cornwall for the work done and prices charged!. Thats all finished now while many big players around Britain rip off both the Government and their workers without censure!
The other way of looking at it is...once you get power through money ...your virtually untouchable...which is why one should do well at school and aim for the stars....you get there and employ large swathes of people who can then feed their families....
 
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1) make cuts on non-essential services

Been there done that, see thread on knife crime as an example of why this doesn't deliver a better society.

expecting others “the wealthy” to do exactly what you’ve never been willing to do yourself

Pay their full share of taxes due within the spirit of current legislation, to ask not what their country can do for them but what they can do for their country is a reasonable and fair expectation.
A tax system based on pay what you want when you want causes problems for the national budget, a bit of a non reply on who funds the shortfall.

The wealthy continue to use their money in ways that generate more money

Nonsense, as Reaganomics showed, greed is good is a busted flush, see also recent reports on inequality in the UK.
Why the need for food banks if all this wealth is trickling down ?
 
wallmth said:
Well I’m certainly not disagreeing with that . Surely though change the laws ,if it’s legal why on earth would you pay a tax you didn’t have to ...Some people just feel they can use their money better than giving it to a giant bloated centralized government .
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Often it's questionable whether it's legal or not. For example everyone has to pay business rates on empty property so if your MOT business goes bust you'd still have to pay rates - arguably this is a good thing because it encourages property owners to let out property and drop rents, which keeps the property market ticking over.

Unfortunately major institutional landlords often don't want to reduce rents because they want to keep charging higher rents on the rest of their portfolio. Obviously they don't want to pay millions in rates on empty buildings so they create a bogus charity that pretends to send computers to the third world - charities don't have to pay at least 80% of the bill. These charities are made up nonsense, they've never sent anything to Africa in their entire existence. Not to worry the rest of us can just pay more council tax make up the difference.

Apparently this isn't illegal but if you try and avoid a few hundred quid by saying you live alone when your missus stays over four nights a week they'll throw the book at you and confiscate your car.
 
JIMNNINA said:
1) make cuts on non-essential services

Been there done that, see thread on knife crime as an example of why this doesn't deliver a better society.

expecting others “the wealthy” to do exactly what you’ve never been willing to do yourself

Pay their full share of taxes due within the spirit of current legislation, to ask not what their country can do for them but what they can do for their country is a reasonable and fair expectation.
A tax system based on pay what you want when you want causes problems for the national budget, a bit of a non reply on who funds the shortfall.

The wealthy continue to use their money in ways that generate more money

Nonsense, as Reaganomics showed, greed is good is a busted flush, see also recent reports on inequality in the UK.
Why the need for food banks if all this wealth is trickling down ?
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It’s always somebody else paying though eh Jim....no doubt you’ve be a net contributor over the years ....shouldn’t you ask what you should do for ..blah blah blah
 
wallmth said:
I Have four kids between 19 and 30 ,I know they have not got it easy by any stretch .They have it so much harder than previous generations ,but throwing more money at government ? I don’t get how that’s going to help ....again that’s the kind of crux of it ..should I lob thousands extra in tax or help one of mine with a down payment .
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Fair enough, I was making a more general point about it being unsustainable in the long run if people start to feel the system is unfair - the tax system being a small part of this. Society is reliant on the idea that everyone has the chance to make a go of it if they try hard. If I was rich I wouldn't be so complacent that the general population are happy for me to get richer (including avoiding tax) whilst they struggle. I think the Tories are aware of the problems that their ideology is increasingly facing in the eyes of the general public.
 
SlowDownDerek said:
Fair enough, I was making a more general point about it being unsustainable in the long run if people start to feel the system is unfair - the tax system being a small part of this. Society is reliant on the idea that everyone has the chance to make a go of it if they try hard. If I was rich I wouldn't be so complacent that the general population are happy for me to get richer (including avoiding tax) whilst they struggle. I think the Tories are aware of the problems that their ideology is increasingly facing in the eyes of the general public.
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Well guess it comes back down to getting our democracy back in working order ,hopefully we can start voting in parties that are going to find a happy as possible medium ..
 
wallmth said:
Well guess it comes back down to getting our democracy back in working order ,hopefully we can start voting in parties that are going to find a happy as possible medium ..
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We definitely need to at least give everyone the chance to do well no matter what their background, something that most would agree with but that the current system struggle to do in my view. Not letting rich people/businesses avoid tax that the rest of us have to pay would be a good start.
 
wallmth said:
I Have four kids between 19 and 30 ,I know they have not got it easy by any stretch .They have it so much harder than previous generations ,but throwing more money at government ? I don’t get how that’s going to help ....again that’s the kind of crux of it ..should I lob thousands extra in tax or help one of mine with a down payment .
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I agree that "throwing money" at Government isn't a solution, but I do think that the opposite, cut after cut after cut, isn't really helping at all. We will obviously disagree, but I do feel the wealthy should be making a bigger contribution.

I've obviously been reliant on a good welfare system all of my life, and fortunate to have had such support. I've also worked and paid my share of taxes through the years. I don't see why the super-rich should get away with avoidance. Yes, its the way of the world but we don't have to accept it will always be that way.

I also worry, like you, about the next generation.
 
SlowDownDerek said:
Fair enough, I was making a more general point about it being unsustainable in the long run if people start to feel the system is unfair - the tax system being a small part of this. Society is reliant on the idea that everyone has the chance to make a go of it if they try hard. If I was rich I wouldn't be so complacent that the general population are happy for me to get richer (including avoiding tax) whilst they struggle. I think the Tories are aware of the problems that their ideology is increasingly facing in the eyes of the general public.
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That last sentence Derek...is oh so significant now...if nothing else the Tories..during the Brexit period....have shown their transparency... and somewhat luckily for them , Labour are very much under the microscope too!
The 21st Century in our politics is starting to get very revealing for Joe Public!
 
The champion of the pay what you want tax regime seems short of solutions to balancing the income and demands on the national budget.

Austerity is a failed policy so the lost revenue gap needs bridging, perhaps an annual fee for membership of the upper chamber and a transaction levy on funds moving to tax havens could help out.
 
JIMNNINA said:
The champion of the pay what you want tax regime seems short of solutions to balancing the income and demands on the national budget.

Austerity is a failed policy so the lost revenue gap needs bridging, perhaps an annual fee for membership of the upper chamber and a transaction levy on funds moving to tax havens could help out.
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The champion of soak the rich has never paid a penny more tax than he was legally obliged . Surely the legal spirit of the tax dodger is strong in this one .
Ask not what you can do for your country rather ask what everybody else can do eh Jim or nina
 
Expecting everyone to pay their way is seen as soak the rich, very emotive.

Members of the upper chamber being non dom tax exiles arent hypocrites obviously.

No explanation of how the pay what you want tax economic model will produce an adequate national income.
 
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