Non - Labour Party

RobTrent said:
Which goes against your comments in your previous post. Make up your mind.

Also if wages go up, prices invariably do as well.
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Don't mention economics, you may have done there, but I think you got away with it.*




* From an original idea by John Cleese and Connie Booth.
 
Ken Baileys Ghost said:
:clap:


Hopefully that puts to bed the myth that is was just Blair on his own that took us into Iraq.

Anyone got the figures on how many Labour MPs voted for austerity? :grinning:
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I don’t care how many silly Tories voted for Iraq . I was responding to jimnnina new stupid attack line “ who voted for austerity “
You voted Labour knowing full well we had been taken into a fcuked up war by its leader but I’m guessing you didn’t vote to go into Iraq ....the fact that even now your trying to wash your hands of the decision by blaming the other party proves my point .. sometimes the party you vote for does things you don’t like .
 
Haven't read all of Erik's post but a party promising pie and jam, they've got my vote as long as they want it. This Utopia, is it some sort of up market Ambrosia custard? : )
 
One thing that strikes me as strange is how tribal Labour voters are .I can’t imagine any scenario where Conservatives would be crying into their beers about their party eg KBG original post it reading like someone’s died . We just up sticks and move to another party that’s more in line with how we feel .As we have done in just the last few years with UKIP and Brexit party ... maybe that’s why we are so much more successful right now .
 
RobTrent said:
Which goes against your comments in your previous post. Make up your mind.

Also if wages go up, prices invariably do as well.
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You keep accusing me of contradicting myself. How does increasing wages and surpressing property price inflation not fit with what I'm saying?

Yes people like you and I will have to pay more for hospitality so that workers get a fair wage. Fine by me, and I suspect you.
 
wallmth said:
One thing that strikes me as strange is how tribal Labour voters are .I can’t imagine any scenario where Conservatives would be crying into their beers about their party eg KBG original post it reading like someone’s died . We just up sticks and move to another party that’s more in line with how we feel .As we have done in just the last few years with UKIP and Brexit party ... maybe that’s why we are so much more successful right now .
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Sounds pretty tribal to me. Isn't this a thread about Labour voters upping sticks and voting for other parties? You talk as if no one on the right ever bemoaned the way the tory party was being run under Cameron and May.
 
SlowDownDerek said:
You keep accusing me of contradicting myself. How does increasing wages and surpressing property price inflation not fit with what I'm saying?

Yes people like you and I will have to pay more for hospitality so that workers get a fair wage. Fine by me, and I suspect you.
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You said it was difficult for young people to afford to buy a house.
 
SlowDownDerek said:
Sounds pretty tribal to me. Isn't this a thread about Labour voters upping sticks and voting for other parties? You talk as if no one on the right ever bemoaned the way the tory party was being run under Cameron and May.
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I get you point I guess I was talking more about just this forum and the emotional attachment some seem to have ... of course your totally right this is about voters upping sticks in places like Hartlepool .
 
RobTrent said:
You said it was difficult for young people to afford to buy a house.
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It is, which is partly caused by low wages and a shortage of housing.

Part of the problem with the Labour Party is that they dismiss people's legitimate concerns about the impact of immigration. Downward pressure on wages at the lower end, upward pressure on housing costs and increased pressure on public services. Labour, and the remain campaign for that matter, never really addressed these concerns.
 
wallmth said:
One thing that strikes me as strange is how tribal Labour voters are .I can’t imagine any scenario where Conservatives would be crying into their beers about their party eg KBG original post it reading like someone’s died . We just up sticks and move to another party that’s more in line with how we feel .As we have done in just the last few years with UKIP and Brexit party ... maybe that’s why we are so much more successful right now .
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The Conservative party elected members move into parties within the party. The erg and 1922 Committee have free reign to moan about the performance of the leader and promote their agenda.
Always good to be reminded that Conservative voters are so flexible , these are my principles if you don't like them I have plenty of others as marx might have said.
 
The attachment to the Labour party is historical and deep rooted. It is about what the party stood for and for the people it worked for. It's about values and morals and beliefs. I could no more vote Tory than I could support southampton. Thatcher and co had a clear set of principles and plans, my view is that they were the wrong ones, but they had them. The current Tories have no guiding principles at all, a bunch of grabbing chancers and crooks. In it for themselves. Johnson has surrounded himself with sycophants and supporters (and Gove). Johnson blows with the wind.

Blair shook things up, by trying to have a broader appeal. There was much his government did that was admirable. The rebuilding of schools and focus on children and young people, including sure start centres, was brilliant. Prior to 97 many of the older schools were in disrepair, not unusual to see a leaking roof. But any initiatives had to earn a supportive Daily Mail headline. Blair had an eye on what the likes of the Mail and the Express said and wanted to appeal to their readers. Understandable but many felt that many policies betrayed the working class roots of the Labour movement.

It is anathema to me to swap between voting Labour and Tory. I know many do. And that illustrates the current and ongoing shift in politics. People vote for personalities and have less attachment to a set of principles. The 'news' is soundbite driven trivia - yes/no black/white. Little real chance to get underneath the issues.

The media and those in privileged positions would never allow a truly reforming Labour party to win. That's why they were frightened of Corbyn and his pledges to ensure that the rich and their companies paid their fair share of tax.

The left/ right thing only works now when the Tories and their supporters use left wing as a threat, to conjour up fear. People say things like 'too left wing' and I have no idea what this means. A fair wage, decent housing, good education and health systems, uk owning its own public utilities (many are government owned, just not our government), an end to poverty, people paying the tax that they should. Are these left wing? I'd say not.

Starmer is in an impossible position. He has no chance of becoming prime minister as things stand. I'm not sure he ever does. The labour party must be clear about their vision for the country and it's people. The leader must believe in the vision and inspire hope and belief in people. Should start with talking with LibDems and Greens and seek common ground with them.
 
JIMNNINA said:
The Conservative party elected members move into parties within the party. The erg and 1922 Committee have free reign to moan about the performance of the leader and promote their agenda.
Always good to be reminded that Conservative voters are so flexible , these are my principles if you don't like them I have plenty of others as marx might have said.
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Interesting to note you think being flexible is a bad thing . What are your principles Jim or Nina ? You always appear very critical of others but never seem willing to give your own .
 
fritter said:
The current Tories have no guiding principles at all, a bunch of grabbing chancers and crooks. In it for themselves. Johnson has surrounded himself with sycophants and supporters (and Gove). Johnson blows with the wind.

Blair shook things up, by trying to have a broader appeal.
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Surely Blair's only guiding principle was "say what it takes to get elected". It's difficult to see that he had any real ideological beliefs
 
JIMNNINA said:
The Conservative party elected members move into parties within the party. The erg and 1922 Committee have free reign to moan about the performance of the leader and promote their agenda.
Always good to be reminded that Conservative voters are so flexible , these are my principles if you don't like them I have plenty of others as marx might have said.
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In the same way that traditional Labour voters have now deserted the Labour party because it's changed away from their values, many Conservative voters refused to vote for the party when it moved away from theirs.

It's not the voters who changed but the party they'd previously voted for.

Don't see why you're painting this as a Conservative only thing.
 
fritter said:
The attachment to the Labour party is historical and deep rooted. It is about what the party stood for and for the people it worked for. It's about values and morals and beliefs. I could no more vote Tory than I could support southampton. Thatcher and co had a clear set of principles and plans, my view is that they were the wrong ones, but they had them. The current Tories have no guiding principles at all, a bunch of grabbing chancers and crooks. In it for themselves. Johnson has surrounded himself with sycophants and supporters (and Gove). Johnson blows with the wind.

Blair shook things up, by trying to have a broader appeal. There was much his government did that was admirable. The rebuilding of schools and focus on children and young people, including sure start centres, was brilliant. Prior to 97 many of the older schools were in disrepair, not unusual to see a leaking roof. But any initiatives had to earn a supportive Daily Mail headline. Blair had an eye on what the likes of the Mail and the Express said and wanted to appeal to their readers. Understandable but many felt that many policies betrayed the working class roots of the Labour movement.

It is anathema to me to swap between voting Labour and Tory. I know many do. And that illustrates the current and ongoing shift in politics. People vote for personalities and have less attachment to a set of principles. The 'news' is soundbite driven trivia - yes/no black/white. Little real chance to get underneath the issues.

The media and those in privileged positions would never allow a truly reforming Labour party to win. That's why they were frightened of Corbyn and his pledges to ensure that the rich and their companies paid their fair share of tax.

The left/ right thing only works now when the Tories and their supporters use left wing as a threat, to conjour up fear. People say things like 'too left wing' and I have no idea what this means. A fair wage, decent housing, good education and health systems, uk owning its own public utilities (many are government owned, just not our government), an end to poverty, people paying the tax that they should. Are these left wing? I'd say not.

Starmer is in an impossible position. He has no chance of becoming prime minister as things stand. I'm not sure he ever does. The labour party must be clear about their vision for the country and it's people. The leader must believe in the vision and inspire hope and belief in people. Should start with talking with LibDems and Greens and seek common ground with them.
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Well written but could easily be rewritten with the Tories and Labour names switched around particularly the bit about the Left wing threat ... we all know that so many on the left( many on this forum ) just love to make out we’re just one step away from a Fascist society and anyone voting for the Tories/Brexit is a racist .
Suggesting that Blair was principled whereas the current crop of Tories are not is pretty laughable .
 
wallmth said:
I’m suprised electoral reform wasn’t bought in whilst Labour were in power if it’s so desperately needed , of course you were winning then . Also suprised you weren’t furious over UKIP having over 4 million votes yet only a solitary MP . Your looking for excuses rather than accepting that if you have a decent leader with good policies eventually you will win elections . What Labour are selling now people are not buying , that’s the issue .
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Firstly , i am not a labour voter ( no point in Dorset) and yes UKIP would have won seats under PR but thats fine, thats proper democracy. You love jumping to conclusions !
 
wallmth said:
Did you vote for an illegal war in Iraq that killed hundreds of thousands of innocents . I know I didn’t.
Get back to me after the Conservative and unionist party have done something as criminal as that .
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They all flippin voted for it and would have probably been quicker to go in!
 
Ivyhouse said:
The problem for the centre left in this country is the system. Their vote is now split between Labour, Liberals, Greens and nationalist parties such as SNP and Plaid while the right is really just the Tories. Unless they can organise themselves into some form of coalition and use proper tactical voting I think we’re in for a long period of Tory rule.
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Someone gets it! Hurrah.
 
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