Investigation into training

Neil Dawson said:
Usual hyperbolic misinterpretation.

I’ve never said we will go down. I’ve always said if we keep Eddie we will stay up. So if we go down he will be proving me wrong not right.

It is perfectly possible to look at a set of issues and question whether an imbalanced backroom team might be the cause. I accept you don’t believe this to be the case and like I said earlier I respect that view because I’m not 100% sure myself.
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And your response to the accusation that you identified this 'Eddie's mates' issue as a problem years ago and you've been trying to blame all of our problems on it ever since, despite the actual evidence showing that they way Eddie has chosen to do things has been very successful?
 
SlowDownDerek said:
And your response to the accusation that you identified this 'Eddie's mates' issue as a problem years ago and you've been trying to blame all of our problems on it ever since, despite the actual evidence showing that they way Eddie has chosen to do things has been very successful?
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Probably too complicated to discuss without boring everyone to tears but in a nutshell and repeating what I said earlier:

All of our achievements have been achieved by having a focused backroom team who know each other and a very tight knit group of lower league players who grew together with a team that understood them. It was an incredible experience for all of us.

As that team age or move on the ability to play without them has proved hit and miss and we have seen some talented players not develop in the way they should. We have signed some premier league/champions league level players too who couldn’t be integrated or couldn’t fit in. We have also had a few successes.

To me we are in a stick or twist situation without the ability to stick as Franno, Daniels, Surman, Gosling etc wont be any better this season and may be worse. Pugh has gone and we may lose Fraser or Wilson. That will mean more players needed who have to be integrated and to me a system that they will have played before and understand. We didn’t play very well when the old guard got injured last year and we never play well when we try and move away from our traditional 4-4-2.

Now, we all agree Eddie should stay. Most of us agree we need new ideas and that the consistency and standards dropped last year after November. So you either think we should keep who we have got and they can learn new things (perfectly plausible argument) or you think maybe we should mix it up a little and you know that I think there is a balance that allows us to keep all that is good and inject a new impetus.

You think I have to prove this for it to be right. I can’t. It’s an opinion that I don’t believe that the best people for us to push on just happened to all play for the same team as or share Christmas Dinner with Eddie. What a wonderful coincidence that would have been. I respect your contrary opinion and none of us will ever know the truth anyway... just a bit of debate.
 
davygravy said:
Fergie....Klopp....Wenger....Mourinho...are among some of the best managers the PL has had....none had top level playing experience...I guess they all did their courses, passed their badges, improved their knowledge....along the way. Nothing to suggest any of our backroom team haven't been able to also improve their skills.
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Debatable with Ferguson as he was playing in the league that produced two European champions in two years, it was a different Scotland then!! The others yes...
lower league career poster boys amidst the Guardiolas and Zidanes. They also surrounded themselves with coaches who had played at the top level. It’s balance. Of course anyone can achieve it... but having a blend of people some who have learnt it from a book and some who have done it at the highest level has to be preferable.

Listening to Mings talking about how much his game has come on under John Terry was interesting. I don’t like JT but swallowing that for a minute it would have to wouldn’t it. If you can’t learn from a man who has stopped the worlds greatest forwards continually passing on tips about when to step off etc who could you learn from?
 
Neil Dawson said:
Probably too complicated to discuss without boring everyone to tears but in a nutshell and repeating what I said earlier:

All of our achievements have been achieved by having a focused backroom team who know each other and a very tight knit group of lower league players who grew together with a team that understood them. It was an incredible experience for all of us.

As that team age or move on the ability to play without them has proved hit and miss and we have seen some talented players not develop in the way they should. We have signed some premier league/champions league level players too who couldn’t be integrated or couldn’t fit in. We have also had a few successes.

To me we are in a stick or twist situation without the ability to stick as Franno, Daniels, Surman, Gosling etc wont be any better this season and may be worse. Pugh has gone and we may lose Fraser or Wilson. That will mean more players needed who have to be integrated and to me a system that they will have played before and understand. We didn’t play very well when the old guard got injured last year and we never play well when we try and move away from our traditional 4-4-2.

Now, we all agree Eddie should stay. Most of us agree we need new ideas and that the consistency and standards dropped last year after November. So you either think we should keep who we have got and they can learn new things (perfectly plausible argument) or you think maybe we should mix it up a little and you know that I think there is a balance that allows us to keep all that is good and inject a new impetus.

You think I have to prove this for it to be right. I can’t. It’s an opinion that I don’t believe that the best people for us to push on just happened to all play for the same team as or share Christmas Dinner with Eddie. What a wonderful coincidence that would have been. I respect your contrary opinion and none of us will ever know the truth anyway... just a bit of debate.
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While I appreciate there may be some truth to the "problems" you've identified - a reliance on 4-4-2, difficulty integrating new players etc, I don't think they are as significant as your post suggests, are not unique to us, and there have also been mitigating circumstances that you've not included. For example, we often experiment with formations against the stronger teams which gives a skewed perception of their success, and we also have several examples of players joining and becoming starters since we've been in the PL: King, Ake, Lerma, Brooks, L. Cook etc.

My main disagreement is your assertion that we haven't been slowly evolving the backroom staff, adding new impetus, fresh ideas and people from the outside. A look at the staff profiles Billy posted shows that that is exactly what we already do. Sure, there is a core group of "Eddie's mates", but we've also added a number of new personalities, roles and experiences to that group.

So even if we accept that the problems you've identified exist, they exist despite already implementing your proposed solution. Continuing to blame the lack of new faces in the backroom staff therefore comes across as ideological rather than based on any actual evidence.
 
See Neil I don't really have a problem with any of your criticisms of tactics, players, etc. I actually agree with many of them - although I would say Howe has changed up the formation a lot more than you've given him credit for.

My issue is your very specific pinpointed reason for the problem. You say:

"you either think we should keep who we have got and they can learn new things or you think maybe we should mix it up a little"

I don't see why anyone would think either of these things. I think:

"I haven't got a clue what goes on behind the scenes so I've got no idea what they need to do."

We need to sort our defence out. Eddie's needs to work out how to do that - it may need new coaches, new players, different drills, different fitness, diet, tactics, formation, etc. We can legitimately comment on players, formations and tactics because we can see these but we can't possibly know if new coaches, drills, etc. are required yet you appear to have a bee in your bonnet about it for some reason.

Not forgetting that the subject of this entire thread is that they are conducting a review - so maybe they are constantly asking the questions you accuse him of being blind to.
 
SlowDownDerek said:
See Neil I don't really have a problem with any of your criticisms of tactics, players, etc. I actually agree with many of them - although I would say Howe has changed up the formation a lot more than you've given him credit for.

My issue is your very specific pinpointed reason for the problem. You say:

"you either think we should keep who we have got and they can learn new things or you think maybe we should mix it up a little"

I don't see why anyone would think either of these things. I think:

"I haven't got a clue what goes on behind the scenes so I've got no idea what they need to do."

We need to sort our defence out. Eddie's needs to work out how to do that - it may need new coaches, new players, different drills, different fitness, diet, tactics, formation, etc. We can legitimately comment on players, formations and tactics because we can see these but we can't possibly know if new coaches, drills, etc. are required yet you appear to have a bee in your bonnet about it for some reason.

Not forgetting that the subject of this entire thread is that they are conducting a review - so maybe they are constantly asking the questions you accuse him of being blind to.
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I’ve not said he is blind to it. Your ability to put words in people’s mouths is staggering. Why not concentrate on what you want to say rather than making up stuff other people haven’t said and claiming they have. I’ve never said we are going down, I’ve never said Eddie is blind to his coaching team as clearly he is a decent man manager so that is not the case. I’m sure he has assessed them and thinks they are what he needs. It doesn’t mean I have to agree with it though in the same way I don’t understand why he plays Ibe in wide midfield.

And I disagree with not being able to comment on things you can’t see. We all comment on starting line ups without having seen who has phoned it in during training all week, or who is carrying a niggle. If a team is woeful at setting up to defend corners the chances are it’s a training issue. If a full back overlaps and every single time nobody covers him it’s a training issue. You don’t have to attend training to know this. You don’t have to see it with your own eyes.
 
Neil Dawson said:
I’ve not said he is blind to it. Your ability to put words in people’s mouths is staggering. Why not concentrate on what you want to say rather than making up stuff other people haven’t said and claiming they have. I’ve never said we are going down, I’ve never said Eddie is blind to his coaching team as clearly he is a decent man manager so that is not the case. I’m sure he has assessed them and thinks they are what he needs. It doesn’t mean I have to agree with it though in the same way I don’t understand why he plays Ibe in wide midfield.

And I disagree with not being able to comment on things you can’t see. We all comment on starting line ups without having seen who has phoned it in during training all week, or who is carrying a niggle. If a team is woeful at setting up to defend corners the chances are it’s a training issue. If a full back overlaps and every single time nobody covers him it’s a training issue. You don’t have to attend training to know this. You don’t have to see it with your own eyes.
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Surely the fact that you've been criticising him for not changing his backroom staff for unnamed people that you think are better is implying he's unwilling to look at things in the way that you look at them. It's a fair interpretation of what you have said. As for you saying we are going down - I would say you've been implying we've had major problems for ages and given that we've only got one goal these days - staying up - I'd be tempted to ask what the problem is if you don't think we'll go down? Treading water is success unfortunately.

We can see starting line ups and we can see tactics in games. It's fair to say the training or tactics is not up to scratch if you think that but to zero in and pinpoint a specific reason you can't possibly have any idea about is criticism for the sake of it. Basically your problem is with Howe and you should be directing your criticism at him.
 
It’s interesting how you feel you need to tell people what they should be thinking and saying? Control issues?

Everyone else can disagree with people without doing this. Bit of feedback you can happily choose to ignore and I am sure you will ;)

I don’t have a problem with Eddie, given me the best years of my football watching life. I have an interest in us pushing on as a club by seeing every player developed and the team consistent on the pitch. We dropped the ball on that more last year than in any recent year. Eddie has said that so it’s not my opinion. He will have his views on why and they are highly unlikely to be the same as anyone else’s as he is close to it and we aren’t.

I’m just chucking my views out there as a debate it’s as simple as that, you might have a different view but it doesn’t make mine wrong other than in your own opinion mate.
 
Neil Dawson said:
It’s interesting how you feel you need to tell people what they should be thinking and saying? Control issues?

Everyone else can disagree with people without doing this. Bit of feedback you can happily choose to ignore and I am sure you will ;)

I don’t have a problem with Eddie, given me the best years of my football watching life. I have an interest in us pushing on as a club by seeing every player developed and the team consistent on the pitch. We dropped the ball on that more last year than in any recent year. Eddie has said that so it’s not my opinion. He will have his views on why and they are highly unlikely to be the same as anyone else’s as he is close to it and we aren’t.

I’m just chucking my views out there as a debate it’s as simple as that, you might have a different view but it doesn’t make mine wrong other than in your own opinion mate.
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I've not told you what to say I've criticised what you have said, as you have criticised what I've said - no problem.

The reason I am criticising you is that you identified this 'Eddie's mates' issue years ago and seem determined to find a problem to blame on it - hence why you've blamed every possible problem with the playing side of things on it at one point or another. You've admitted that you don't know any details about the people you are criticising so it does make me wonder why you are so keen to highlight it as a problem. If it is a problem then surely Eddie is the problem.

Anyway we've just about gone as far as we can with this I would say.
 
Neil Dawson said:
It’s interesting how you feel you need to tell people what they should be thinking and saying? Control issues?

Everyone else can disagree with people without doing this. Bit of feedback you can happily choose to ignore and I am sure you will ;)

I don’t have a problem with Eddie, given me the best years of my football watching life. I have an interest in us pushing on as a club by seeing every player developed and the team consistent on the pitch. We dropped the ball on that more last year than in any recent year. Eddie has said that so it’s not my opinion. He will have his views on why and they are highly unlikely to be the same as anyone else’s as he is close to it and we aren’t.

I’m just chucking my views out there as a debate it’s as simple as that, you might have a different view but it doesn’t make mine wrong other than in your own opinion mate.
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It almost seems like argument for arguments sake. If it isn't broke don't fix it. No team plays to the same consistency and improves year on year apart from maybe Man City in the last 3 years. It just doesn't happen. Players have peaks and troughs the same as all of us. I honestly think it's a load of old tosh.

Some of the games since the famous "drop off" in November have seen us play outstanding football still mixed with diabolical defending and a huge injury list. I'd put more of our "drop off" down to the last point. Just because Eddie says we did tail off doesn't mean he doesn't think it was down to losing many of our squad to injury. I didn't see anything that alarmed me and yet as others have said we weren't far off our best ever season in the PL. Now imagine what we could have done with a fully fit squad?
 
SlowDownDerek said:
I've not told you what to say I've criticised what you have said, as you have criticised what I've said - no problem.

The reason I am criticising you is that you identified this 'Eddie's mates' issue years ago and seem determined to find a problem to blame on it - hence why you've blamed every possible problem with the playing side of things on it at one point or another. You've admitted that you don't know any details about the people you are criticising so it does make me wonder why you are so keen to highlight it as a problem. If it is a problem then surely Eddie is the problem.

Anyway we've just about gone as far as we can with this I would say.
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I don’t know how many times I have to say it isn’t a problem.

There is a big different between thinking something is the key to better consistency, less injuries and further improvement and thinking it is the solution to a massive problem.

In the big scheme of things we don’t have a problem but we do have some challenges embedding consistency with some new players and keeping existing ones fit.

It’s just my view on what I think might help.
 
Neil Dawson said:
I don’t know how many times I have to say it isn’t a problem.

There is a big different between thinking something is the key to better consistency, less injuries and further improvement and thinking it is the solution to a massive problem.

In the big scheme of things we don’t have a problem but we do have some challenges embedding consistency with some new players and keeping existing ones fit.

It’s just my view on what I think might help.
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I honestly don't know where I got the idea that you thought it was a problem.

Neil Dawson said:
First start point for me should be ‘was it right to keep all the coaching, medical and fitness teams from league one or should we have brought in people that understand the different rigours of top league football’
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Whilst I agree that we need someone in our coaching set up who has the experience of playing at the highest level there are other factors to consider in addition to a full review of training methods..

Have we got the stadium pitch and training ground set up correctly. Do we water at the right time or too much/too little.

The review should include an in depth assessment of the type of boots the players wear.
 
I’ve no idea if this is accurate, but going back to injuries, it would appear our number of days lost to injury and total number of injuries has gone DOWN this season. It doesn’t feel like that but I guess it might be because it’s been our regular starters who have suffered the injuries.

Another slight caveat is a number of these injuries might carry over into next season so the 18/19 stats could be understated slightly
 

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How many top players make top coaches or managers?....not many tbf........being able to do something extremely well and teaching someone to do something extremely well are two very different things............i think that rings true in every sport.
 
Topfarrier said:
How many top players make top coaches or managers?....not many tbf........being able to do something extremely well and teaching someone to do something extremely well are two very different things............i think that rings true in every sport.
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Bobby Charlton was a great example of that.
He just couldn't understand why the professional footballers under his mangement were simply incapable of doing all the brilliant things he could do that just came naturally to him.
 
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