Non - Brexit

The EU is the sum of all its parts...and very unbalànced in its efficiency! ...
Trying to be a larger more encompassing union has made it weaker!
Would it not have been better for France,Germany,Denmark and the Netherlands to form one union........Italy,Greece,Spain,Portugal, Croatia, Rumania,Hungary, Czechs etc , another?

Britain and ROI .....or Britain..and it's Commonwealth!
Or Britain,Norway,Sweden and maybe Denmark.
The EU in its present form is a disaster!
 
Celebrity : This awful Concept that is infiltrating our once Sane Culture!
Rees - Mogg is a classic product of that!
The word Democracy means different things in the minds of such Morons! It means the 'switching of conviction' or ideas to suit oneself in a current dilemma....you will see the same with Johnson, Gove and not a few others!
May is the stable one ?...or Trying to be Democratic ?

Unfortunately;
Democracy is ILL! An even worse example of this can be observed Over the Pond!
 
ErikthViking said:
Any comments on the democracy issue, or is it only about celebrity politicians?
Click to expand...

How do lobbyists improve the pure democracy we enjoy in the uk?
Just need to take up your idea of abolishing the monarchy and house of lords and all will be perfect in the most perfect world.
 
We are now on page 293 of this subject.

Whether you voted Leave or Remain, as with Parliament, this thread will continue to go around in circles between the two sides, until the subject comes to conclusion between the UK and the EU.

Even then one side or the other won’t be happy, as with Theresa May’s deal.
 
billythekid said:
We are now on page 293 of this subject.

Whether you voted Leave or Remain, as with Parliament, this thread will continue to go around in circles between the two sides, until the subject comes to conclusion between the UK and the EU.

Even then one side or the other won’t be happy, as with Theresa May’s deal.
Click to expand...

whilst meanwhile, much bigger issues are going all around us......
 
wellsworld said:
whilst meanwhile, much bigger issues are going all around us......
Click to expand...
And this is the point. Our whole lives are being messed about by Brexit. Yesterday I helped a guy who had fallen off his pushbike. He was in terrible pain and had trouble breathing. I called 999 and was told an ambulance would be with us in 4 hours! So while Brexit and immigration fuel the minds of some, there are real issues out there which are being ignored.
 
the democratic deficit on the EU

isnt unique in democratic countries unless you know of a democratic utopia ? All the UK utilities are owned by undemocratically elected companies, this probably has more impact on daily life in the UK.
 
stanthevan said:
And this is the point. Our whole lives are being messed about by Brexit. Yesterday I helped a guy who had fallen off his pushbike. He was in terrible pain and had trouble breathing. I called 999 and was told an ambulance would be with us in 4 hours! So while Brexit and immigration fuel the minds of some, there are real issues out there which are being ignored.
Click to expand...

It's almost as if the NHS needs more money and fewer patients Stan.
I hope the bloke was ok in the end.
 
A couple of things, only because I was wondering whether we had signed that elusive CM and wandered on to this thread.

We have an adversarial system of politics brought about largely by a first-past-the post system of elections. This means that in any election a large number of people are not represented by the government in power. On the whole this, arguably, hasn't mattered, it's a blunt edged system but it tends to have worked. However it does mean that when the likes UKIP and the idea of us leaving the EU began to raise its head there was no way they were going to be able to gain representation to the system as it exists. Barring one existing MP when he resigned his seat and stood as a UKIP candidate in an election. The Lib Dems have been complaining about this for years and number of votes they have to get before an MP is elected.

So when we eventually had a referendum we discovered that in fact huge numbers of people felt they were not being represented. A lot of them in post-industrial constituencies in the midlands.

What happened? A large number of people gave a large kick up the a*** to a large number of politicians. And why? Because for the first time in several decades their vote counted and you had people signing up to vote for the first time. (This incidentally really pissed me off in that they had shown no interest in voting in their communities at all prior to the referendum, but hey it proved the alienation). Additionally this has now put the Labour Party in a very difficult situation with the idea of a peoples's vote.

My point is that had we had a proportional representation system in this country the BREXIT situation probably would never had arisen because at the very least, people would have had some representation in the first place. Some, in favour of BREXIT might not think this a good thing but I find it interesting that after WW2 the allies insisted Germany had a PR system and which makes the political parties talk to each other prior to forming coalitions. If any country has been successful post WW2 it is Germany. It might also be worth pointing out that that most enthusiastic of MEPs, Nigel Farage, was elected via PR.

We have a political system that is broken; we have a Tory party which is split down the middle and propped up by the DUP which has 10 seats in Parliament. The DUP were elected with just 292,316 votes (the lib dems by the way received 2.4 million votes for their 12 seats). We have a Labour party that is terrified of losing seats if they vote for a People's Vote; they are so busy sitting on the fence it must be very painful. And nobody votes for the Lib Dems because of how difficult it is to vote for a winning candidate.

Any proportional representational system for a while will cause some of confusion in a country that isn't used to it. But the Tory Brexiteers could decide whether they want to go off a form their nasty little right wing party with the rump of UKIP. The Social Democrat side of the Labour Party can talk to the One Nation side of the Tories and the left wing of the Labour Party can talk to the Socialist Workers Party and the lib dems would have to make up their minds who they were going to talk to.

After the election would be the interesting bit because the parties would have to think about their constituents while negotiating a coalition because every vote would count.
 
JIMNNINA said:
the democratic deficit on the EU

isnt unique in democratic countries unless you know of a democratic utopia ? All the UK utilities are owned by undemocratically elected companies, this probably has more impact on daily life in the UK.
Click to expand...

This still does not answer the question. Of course, you can always answer anything by asking if it is the same/better/worse elsewhere. This is merely deflection.

Why does no-one want to tackle the question of the democratic deficit in the EU?
 
Redpost said:
A couple of things, only because I was wondering whether we had signed that elusive CM and wandered on to this thread.

We have an adversarial system of politics brought about largely by a first-past-the post system of elections. This means that in any election a large number of people are not represented by the government in power. On the whole this, arguably, hasn't mattered, it's a blunt edged system but it tends to have worked. However it does mean that when the likes UKIP and the idea of us leaving the EU began to raise its head there was no way they were going to be able to gain representation to the system as it exists. Barring one existing MP when he resigned his seat and stood as a UKIP candidate in an election. The Lib Dems have been complaining about this for years and number of votes they have to get before an MP is elected.

So when we eventually had a referendum we discovered that in fact huge numbers of people felt they were not being represented. A lot of them in post-industrial constituencies in the midlands.

What happened? A large number of people gave a large kick up the a*** to a large number of politicians. And why? Because for the first time in several decades their vote counted and you had people signing up to vote for the first time. (This incidentally really pissed me off in that they had shown no interest in voting in their communities at all prior to the referendum, but hey it proved the alienation). Additionally this has now put the Labour Party in a very difficult situation with the idea of a peoples's vote.

My point is that had we had a proportional representation system in this country the BREXIT situation probably would never had arisen because at the very least, people would have had some representation in the first place. Some, in favour of BREXIT might not think this a good thing but I find it interesting that after WW2 the allies insisted Germany had a PR system and which makes the political parties talk to each other prior to forming coalitions. If any country has been successful post WW2 it is Germany. It might also be worth pointing out that that most enthusiastic of MEPs, Nigel Farage, was elected via PR.

We have a political system that is broken; we have a Tory party which is split down the middle and propped up by the DUP which has 10 seats in Parliament. The DUP were elected with just 292,316 votes (the lib dems by the way received 2.4 million votes for their 12 seats). We have a Labour party that is terrified of losing seats if they vote for a People's Vote; they are so busy sitting on the fence it must be very painful. And nobody votes for the Lib Dems because of how difficult it is to vote for a winning candidate.

Any proportional representational system for a while will cause some of confusion in a country that isn't used to it. But the Tory Brexiteers could decide whether they want to go off a form their nasty little right wing party with the rump of UKIP. The Social Democrat side of the Labour Party can talk to the One Nation side of the Tories and the left wing of the Labour Party can talk to the Socialist Workers Party and the lib dems would have to make up their minds who they were going to talk to.

After the election would be the interesting bit because the parties would have to think about their constituents while negotiating a coalition because every vote would count.
Click to expand...

Interesting post. Of course PR may have prevented brexit by stopping governments signing up to unpopular treaties in the first place.
 
stanthevan said:
And this is the point. Our whole lives are being messed about by Brexit. Yesterday I helped a guy who had fallen off his pushbike. He was in terrible pain and had trouble breathing. I called 999 and was told an ambulance would be with us in 4 hours! So while Brexit and immigration fuel the minds of some, there are real issues out there which are being ignored.
Click to expand...

This is exactly why Corbyn is wrong to suggest a general election is the best way to sort brexit. We've already had one and it got us nowhere.
 
For an Issue that effects the Country Externally:
Each Politician should vote how he or she sees things and trying to represent the majority of the people that voted them in...not easy...but certainly not being ' whipped ' as they term it or ' lobbied' ...that's the undemocratic bit !.......bullied by the ' party' or its 'party line' enforcers!
 
SlowDownDerek said:
This is exactly why Corbyn is wrong to suggest a general election is the best way to sort brexit. We've already had one and it got us nowhere.
Click to expand...

Except Corbyn didn’t get elected, so he wants another go.

Which brings us back to Brexit, some Remainers want another vote for the same reasons.
 
Redpost said:
A couple of things, only because I was wondering whether we had signed that elusive CM and wandered on to this thread.

We have an adversarial system of politics brought about largely by a first-past-the post system of elections. This means that in any election a large number of people are not represented by the government in power. On the whole this, arguably, hasn't mattered, it's a blunt edged system but it tends to have worked. However it does mean that when the likes UKIP and the idea of us leaving the EU began to raise its head there was no way they were going to be able to gain representation to the system as it exists. Barring one existing MP when he resigned his seat and stood as a UKIP candidate in an election. The Lib Dems have been complaining about this for years and number of votes they have to get before an MP is elected.

So when we eventually had a referendum we discovered that in fact huge numbers of people felt they were not being represented. A lot of them in post-industrial constituencies in the midlands.

What happened? A large number of people gave a large kick up the a*** to a large number of politicians. And why? Because for the first time in several decades their vote counted and you had people signing up to vote for the first time. (This incidentally really pissed me off in that they had shown no interest in voting in their communities at all prior to the referendum, but hey it proved the alienation). Additionally this has now put the Labour Party in a very difficult situation with the idea of a peoples's vote.

My point is that had we had a proportional representation system in this country the BREXIT situation probably would never had arisen because at the very least, people would have had some representation in the first place. Some, in favour of BREXIT might not think this a good thing but I find it interesting that after WW2 the allies insisted Germany had a PR system and which makes the political parties talk to each other prior to forming coalitions. If any country has been successful post WW2 it is Germany. It might also be worth pointing out that that most enthusiastic of MEPs, Nigel Farage, was elected via PR.

We have a political system that is broken; we have a Tory party which is split down the middle and propped up by the DUP which has 10 seats in Parliament. The DUP were elected with just 292,316 votes (the lib dems by the way received 2.4 million votes for their 12 seats). We have a Labour party that is terrified of losing seats if they vote for a People's Vote; they are so busy sitting on the fence it must be very painful. And nobody votes for the Lib Dems because of how difficult it is to vote for a winning candidate.

Any proportional representational system for a while will cause some of confusion in a country that isn't used to it. But the Tory Brexiteers could decide whether they want to go off a form their nasty little right wing party with the rump of UKIP. The Social Democrat side of the Labour Party can talk to the One Nation side of the Tories and the left wing of the Labour Party can talk to the Socialist Workers Party and the lib dems would have to make up their minds who they were going to talk to.

After the election would be the interesting bit because the parties would have to think about their constituents while negotiating a coalition because every vote would count.
Click to expand...

Interesting post but didn't we have a vote on whether we wanted an alternative vote system back in 2011 ? I know this is not proportional representation but it would have set us on that path imo. public rejected it by 2 - 1.
 
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